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Franken/Fake "Sotto" Daytona at Christie's Hong Kong

stonestone
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This is quite the story. A $400K Rolex Daytona, already one of the world's most expensive watches, mysteriously becomes a $1m rarity and a highlight of a Christie's auction in Hong Kong. Until the truth leaks and buyers turn tail. Well worth the read.

If Christie's believed the watch was valid at first, once presented with evidence of fraud, they should never have gone ahead with the sale. It does not speak well of them that they did so anyway.

https://bit.ly/3kX2OhW
 
ATWG
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Yea, read up on that last week, nothing surprises me anymore....these auction houses are solely focused on profit.
 
Larry S
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This has been a problem as long as I’ve been collecting. Plenty of documentation here on OF. They move a lot of product is always their excuse.
 
Braindrain
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Wasn't there that redial Longines 13ZN, a few years back, also sold through Christies?
 
blufinz52
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Interesting story. 👍
 
T
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Are they liable if fakes or Franks make it through the auction process?
 
Evitzee
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Never, ever, trust what the auction houses tell you about provenance, originality, condition or anything else about what they are offering, their mission is to move product and it has always been 'caveat emptor', it's always on the buyer to make sure what they are bidding on. Ten or fifteen years ago a watch like this would have probably slipped through the system (at a much lower price), but today there are so many people out there now who have knowledge about these watches and can figure out if they are 'made up'. We are in a spot when NFTs, crypto currencies, and meme stocks are proliferating and people pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into these 'investments', it is no surprise that clever people will try to game the system with these sorts of watches. It's one reason I gave up on high grade vintage watches years ago, just too many questionable watches out there. I'll stay with relatively recent watches bought from trusted sources, there is plenty to choose from to keep me entertained. Auction houses are a good place to SELL your items if they are genuine and good grade, but to BUY from auction houses today, not for me.
Edited:
 
Marsimaxam
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Interesting read.

In general, many auction houses regardless of their size make errors, whether by ignorance, neglect, or fraud, in describing items for auction. I recently bought from a local auction house what I thought was a Globe Wernicke lawyer's bookcase. Yet, when I arrived to pick up the stackable bookcase it turned out that the bookcase was a franken case, made up of both Macy's and Globe Wernicke shelves which were not compatible with one another. Easily determined if the auction house would have simply attempted to open the shelves, looked underneath the base of the shelves or the mechanism.

Granted, I relied on their description, which was incorrect, and the small auction house quickly refunded my money, no questions asked. From now on, I try to drive down to the preview and inspect whatever I'm interested in bidding on in their auctions. However, for many auctions around the world this is not possible and we must rely on the "expertise" of the auction house staff.
 
High Hope
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I came this close to prevailing over a phantom bidder at a classic car auction (Scottsdale.) I was on the floor and my "handler" was really pressuring me. "Bidder B" kept upping the bid. A thoughtful fellow quietly told me he'd figured out the scam. Once I knew this I demanded to see where "Bidder B' was and of course he didn't exist. I quit and they drove the car out the back door never to be seen again.

It was a one-owner early 70s Mercedes SL, really pretty. I'm sworn off auctions altogether now.
 
ghce
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High Hope High Hope
I came this close to prevailing over a phantom bidder at a classic car auction (Scottsdale.) I was on the floor and my "handler" was really pressuring me. "Bidder B" kept upping the bid. A thoughtful fellow quietly told me he'd figured out the scam. Once I knew this I demanded to see where "Bidder B' was and of course he didn't exist. I quit and they drove the car out the back door never to be seen again.

It was a one-owner early 70s Mercedes SL, really pretty. I'm sworn off auctions altogether now.

Had the opposite happen at an Auction for a Roller I wanted to buy, come the day of the auction the car had been pulled and sold at an earlier auction with no details of the car being presented until it hit the stand.
I suspect that one of the owners or associates wanted the car for them selves so eliminated the possible buyers whilst still giving the sale an air of legitimacy.
 
Evitzee
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High Hope High Hope
I came this close to prevailing over a phantom bidder at a classic car auction (Scottsdale.) I was on the floor and my "handler" was really pressuring me. "Bidder B" kept upping the bid. A thoughtful fellow quietly told me he'd figured out the scam. Once I knew this I demanded to see where "Bidder B' was and of course he didn't exist. I quit and they drove the car out the back door never to be seen again.

It was a one-owner early 70s Mercedes SL, really pretty. I'm sworn off auctions altogether now.
It's an old auction trick, called 'bidding off the chandelier', i.e., a phantom bidder.
 
stonestone
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The other party whose reputation suffered in this affair was The Vintage Concept, an icon among Hong Kong vintage collectors with a particular focus on vintage Rolexes and no shortage of stratospherically priced watches. They appear to have been the first ones to sell the Franken Daytona.
 
Pianotuna
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Sorry to start a tale with, “when I was a lad …”, but, when I was a lad it was the seller at an auction who paid the commission on a sale. That was his fee to the auctioneer.
Sometime (feel free to fill in dates) in the 70’s I seem to recall Sotheby’s or Christie’s running a car auction in Sydney or Melbourne which was advertised heavily in the press, notably the Saturday morning Age newspaper classified ad section. In pre-internet days it was the go-to place to source anything on four wheels. Anyway the big surprise wasn’t the oxygen depriving price estimates of the forthcoming auction but the revelation that the Buyer would be slugged IIRC 10% on top of the knock down fee.
Today it appears that 20% is the new norm and just a few days ago while idly browsing an upcoming American auction I noted the terms, 22% buyer fee Plus local State sales tax of, I think 8%.
What, unless it was a truly exceptional bargain could inspire a buyer of normal means to add one-third to your bid? Quite bizarre, not to mention ethically dubious.

Not that I’m in the market for 400k of Rolex but I’ll definitely rule out the Honkers Christie auctions in the future. 😗
 
Larry S
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Braindrain Braindrain
Wasn't there that redial Longines 13ZN, a few years back, also sold through Christies?
Yes and there were several incidents. 13zn was a big offender.
 
crl848
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Evitzee Evitzee
It's an old auction trick, called 'bidding off the chandelier', i.e., a phantom bidder.

I think all live auctioneers will bid against you up to the reserve, but not after. If ‘real’ bidding stops the lot is passed. All in the T&Cs.
 
Faz
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"Sotto"? So that's what became of the "Mayer dial" Daytona? I remember way back when I was a member on the VRF how this subject became extremely controversial. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that John Buckley had some bet going against the authenticity of Daytonas in this configuration. I dug up the thread started by John Mayer himself for a proper reference...to this reference!
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vin...egarding-3-color-gold-pn-roc-dials-t6350.html
 
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