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Forgive me father for I have Sinn-ed (903)

  1. cvrle1 Oct 1, 2018

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    Ever since I saw Sinn 903 model, I absolutely fell in love with it, and knew that one day I would love to get one. It was my grail watch really, even though they are not rare by any means. It however had to be old 903 with Lemania movement, and not re-issues with automatic valjoux 7740 movement.

    Few weeks ago I ended up winning one from Japan Auctions and it arrived last night. It is hard to find a lot of specific info on these watches when it comes to models and such, so here is what I think I know so far:

    Model is Sinn 903 ST.GL.24 (i think) with lemania 1877 movement. 18 jewels and delrin brake
    Watch serial and movement serial dont match, which is not a surprise.
    Watch serial is 9030543
    Movement serial is 4,514,4xx
    No idea on possible year of production, as there is very little info about Lemania movements and their corresponding production years. I am guessing somewhere in the 80s, but could be completely wrong.
    Lume glows in the dark for about 10 seconds and then it is done.

    While it is a 24 hour model, there looks to be 2 different ones.
    More common model has 24 hour marker at 6 o'clock position and 12 hour marker at 12o'clock position
    Mine is reversed and has 24 hour marker at 12 o'clock position and 12 hour marker at 6 o'clock position. It looks like latter is less common, at least doing google searching.
    24 hour models have narrow Tswiss madeT, while 12 hour ones have wider.

    Few issues that I noticed so far:
    Few light scratches on the crystal. One larger one that is very shallow so it could be buffed out most likely.
    Bezel rotates around freely, but I am not sure if it is supposed to be as easy to rotate. I was expecting clicking like Seamaster bezels make when they are rotated.
    Crown rolls back about 1/4 turn when I wind the watch. Happens all the time, no matter how wound up it is. Not sure if this is supposed to happen or not. Will mention when I take it to get it serviced.

    IMG_20181001_140212.jpg
    IMG_20181001_142826.jpg IMG_20181001_140731.jpg

    IMG_20181001_140708.jpg

    IMG_20181001_140243.jpg
    IMG_20181001_140259.jpg
    IMG_20181001_140312.jpg

    IMG_20181001_140332.jpg
    IMG_20181001_142623.jpg

    IMG_20181001_140845.jpg
     
    IMG_20181001_140326.jpg IMG_20181001_142712.jpg
  2. Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Oct 1, 2018

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    Congratulations!!!

    These where made late 80’s through early 90’s best I can tell. Mines a 12 hour 18 jewel marked 17 jewels so I assume it’s like the speedies that are like that for age range. I’d put yours early 90’s but it’s conjecture.

    Tritium working as expected.

    Bezel is friction mounted no clicks.
     
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  3. Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Oct 1, 2018

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    image.jpg image.jpg

    For reference. Sinn was unable to give me exact model number nor mfg date for mine when provided both serial numbers.

    FYI it’s a 22mm strap on a 40.5mm case.
     
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  4. sxl2004 Oct 1, 2018

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    Congrats and welcome to the owners club!!
     
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  5. cvrle1 Oct 1, 2018

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    Thanks for that info good sir. I noticed that your watch serial is in a different range all together. 418... vs 903. It makes it even harder to figure out anything production year wise as I saw 12 hour model like yours with 903 serial as well. Heck I saw one that had serial that was only 50 off from mine, and it was a 1873 movement and 12 hour as well. And then I saw 24 hour ones with serial numbers nowhere close to this one. People said Omega was known for mixing and matching parts that they had on hand, Sinn looks to be so much worse haha.

    Can you tell me where you contacted Sinn? It wouldnt hurt to send a quick inquiry to see if they can narrow things down for me. And your watch was one of the 1st ones I saw on OF (remember your new watch day thread) that got me hooked on these.
     
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  6. Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Oct 1, 2018

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    It was right after I got it inquiring into service. Might find some useable info on the 17/18 jewel thing. I don’t think it’s a mismatch of parts, just perhaps new numbering systems for Sinn.

    My movement is 2,0xx,xxx

    The best data I can find is that they where made with the Lemania movement untill 2000, appeared in the 2001 catalog as sold out. This is from http://www.sometimeago.com/sinn-903-st-lemania-1873/

    I'm sticking by a production date of the late 80's early 90's for mine due to the Lemania 17/18 jewel change over matching the same "issue" in Speedmasters with the same 861.

    This appears to match the start date, as Sinn sold the original 806 and I assume 809 tooling to chronotime around 88, about the same time that Brietling sued to get the name and design back, lost and got the name. Prior to this the story was that Sinn was selling 806's (maybe 809) unbranded using left over parts. http://www.chronotime.ch/ which might be or was just the distributor for Ollech & Wajs... this is a backwater hard to track down.

    Other sources seem to claim that all of them where limited production and limited to around 200 a year as that was all Lemania would supply them.

    Another thing to note is that I assume these are Singer dials, and tritium hands and dials, which leads me to believe actual parts production ended in 1999 like the Speedies. Also note they are marked Swiss made, while most, Sinns are marked Made in Germany... There is an argument that this where actually made for Sinn by lemania... As has been noted Sinn had done that for other pieces in that period.

    https://web.archive.org/web/2012102...nl:80/~h.mennink/watches/_private/sinn903.htm Tracking down this guy and getting his pictures might be a lead...

    There seems to be alot of variation out there, which leads me to think that they are made in small runs each year. All dials appear the same with 3 varients. 12 hour, flipped 24 hour, and a 24 hour. I have seen casebacks with no engraving on them also... There is also another with a steel brake..

    http://brown-snout.com/horology/collection/_archive/sinn_903-st_navigator/sinn_navitimer_article.pdf
    interesting piece... lower serial number then mine, 17 jewel marked with what appears to be a 17 jewel movment... But it has the same caseback serial number type as yours...

    I could start tracking, and contacting old posters for more information and see if anything picks up.. I am not sure that this is a watch I really want to go down that rabbit hole and do the history on. Its not like it will ever get its own book lol.

    re contacting Sinn.. no one has ever seemed to get a response back on these with any info at all, not even the correct model number for them. I used this info to get in contact with them.
    https://www.sinn.de/en/Customer_Information.htm#07
     
    Edited Oct 1, 2018
  7. kaisiang098 Oct 1, 2018

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    Beautiful Piece! and i gotta say, i really like your thread title:cool:
     
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  8. cvrle1 Oct 1, 2018

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    Thanks again for all the info and links. Some great tidbits in there for sure, that will keep me searching for more when I have some time. And yes, it is too bad that there will never be a 903 specific book like Speedies have (and looks like Seamaster will get too soon)
     
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  9. Mücke Oct 2, 2018

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    Very nice!
    Congratulations.
     
  10. BenjaminT Oct 2, 2018

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    Great, let's gather some knowledge on those.
    But pictures first - so this is mine:
    1730999.jpg 1818899.jpg
    It is the version with solid caseback. It has a 5-digit S/N engraved: 902xx.
    When visiting the SINN service department, they were able to tell me, that it was sold in 1998. They even told me to whom it was sold.
    So the Lemania version appeared in the Catalogs as 903 St Hd respective 903 St Hd 24 in the late 80ies. Valjoux 7740 and Lemania 1873 were sold in parallel until Valjoux stock was cleared. The last Lemania ones were being sold according to german speaking forums in 2001.
    So these versions have come to my knowledge so far:
    - Lemania 1873, steep computing scale, greenish lume (corresponding to the lume of the hands in my example)
    - Lemania 1873, steep computing scale, yellowish lume (this lume is not aged but was yellowish from the beginning)
    - Lemania 1873, flat computing scale, yellowish lume (my version)
    - Lemania 1877, 12h up, steep computing scale, yellowish lume
    - Lemania 1877, 24h up, steep computing scale, yellowish lume

    According to the catalogs, display back was an option from the early 90ies (designated GL).
    There was also a gold plated case available as option (Designated AU).

    I suppose that the S/N does more or less correspond to the back being used and cannot be assumed in chronological order.

    Feel free to correct me and please add your knowledge.
     
    Edited Oct 2, 2018
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  11. BenjaminT Oct 2, 2018

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    Clicks make little sense for a computer bezel - so this is fine. Friction can be adjusted. Had Sinn do this at mine. Be careful not to pop the bezel off with the crystal in this case. Crystals are available at Sinn. In the past I have found them to be quite flexible in sending spares out, when I asked nicely.
     
    Edited Oct 2, 2018
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  12. George.A Oct 2, 2018

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    Damn fine watch!

    I've had the Valjoux version and enjoyed it quite a bit. 20180506_110629.jpg
     
  13. Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Oct 2, 2018

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    @BenjaminT
    Awesome! Thanks!


    What’s the difference between steep and flat bezel?
     
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  14. cvrle1 Oct 2, 2018

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    @BenjaminT

    yes, thanks very much for this info indeed. I am guessing I may have to visit Sinn when I go to Germany next time, as I dont have one anywhere close to me here in Canada. I'll post up here if/when I fish out some more info in general.
     
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  15. cvrle1 Oct 2, 2018

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    I could be wrong, but looking at his bezel, it looks like it is more flat to the dial

    [​IMG]

    When you compare to mine, it looks more raised/steep

    upload_2018-10-2_9-37-51.png

    I also noticed that notches on the bezel on his watch are a lot more pronounced than on mine. His you can clearly see when looking from top down, mine are barely visible from top down view. (maybe mine was polished a thus lost that crispiness?)
     
    Edited Oct 2, 2018
  16. BenjaminT Oct 2, 2018

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    Exactly, it is a dead flat disc. Whereas yours and @Foo2rama 's has a slope of approx. 30 degrees, I would estimate. Just like the current 903 and the Navitimer. It also makes a difference in the height of the bezel construction:
    1709799.jpg
    By the way, you can spot them easily also if you cannot see the slope due to the angle of photography: They have differences in the scale numbering as well:
    Steep vs Flat
    Red number 10 vs big red triangle
    small red triangle vs red number 36
    20 - 30 - 40 ... vs 2 - 3 - 4 ....
    And what I enjoy most: Flat one has Pi on the scale - so how cool is that :cool:!
     
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  17. cvrle1 Oct 2, 2018

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    It's very neat seeing all the subtle differences when someone points them out. They are so small and are easily missed. That Pi, would have never looked for it if you didnt mention it.
     
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  18. BenjaminT Oct 2, 2018

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    So if you are in the vicinity of Frankfurt - they are about 30min from the airport - I would highly recommend that. I appreciate their exhibition concept a lot. You just walk in and the entire collection is placed openly on display tables. You just take what you like and try. No hassle.

    If your watch was delivered to the americas, I doubt that they will be able to help you with the sales record though. I think they always had some distributor there but I do not know who it was in the 90's.
     
  19. cvrle1 Oct 2, 2018

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    Thats great to know, as I usually do travel through Frankfurt, and leave airport due to long layovers. Gives me something neat to do next time. Thanks! It would be interesting to see where it was delivered, if they have that info, as I got this watch from Japan.
     
  20. Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Oct 2, 2018

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    Add more info...

    The slooped bezel is an e6b sliderule. The flat is just a sliderule I think. The e6b is for avaiation and can’t figure out a tip...