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For those Speedmaster folks who think originality is EVERYTHING

  1. Lapanouse Sep 29, 2016

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    Take a look at this listing.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Omega-Pre-M...021978?hash=item1c7087a49a:g:IVAAAOSwzaJX4~2OPurchases made through these links may earn this site a commission from the eBay Partner Network

    This watch was probably sent to Omega and made "as new." Everything but the movement and case are service replacements, yet the price is still quite strong. This and sales like it should serve as a lesson to all collectors: Originality and patina are very important to SOME, but not everyone wants a watch that shows its age. This "survivor" trend is relatively new, and we must all recognize that collectors are going to buy and collect what they like. Telling collectors that the hands, dial, and bezel must be original for the watch to desirable simply isn't true. It's opinion. The bidders on this watch seem to like a watch with service replacement parts. Just a thought.
     
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  2. Scepticalist Sep 29, 2016

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    To an extent I agree. It's a perfectly acceptable watch to someone who just wants a nice vintage Speedmaster. But the difference in value on the open market between that and one with all original dial, bezela dn hands could be well over double what it actually sells for.

    It does highlight that in some cases it could well be worth buying two vintage watches, using the parts to make one a "perfect vintage" example and simply send the other one for a full service and replacement parts to sell on in this fashion.
     
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  3. watchlovr Sep 29, 2016

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    New In the US maybe, not in the UK.
    Originality has been king for as long as I can remember.
     
  4. Lapanouse Sep 29, 2016

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    I've been collecting Speedmasters since the mid 90s and other watches since the 70s. The collecting hobby barely existed before the 80s. Polishing cases and updating thrashed bezels, dials, and hands was the rule, not the exception until the last decade or so. I happen to prefer patina, too, but it is important to recognize that one size or look isn't right for all. That listing makes the case clearly.
     
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  5. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Sep 29, 2016

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    All the listing shows is that it will sell for far less than it likely would have with original parts. No one has said these would never sell - there will always be the "ooh shiny!" crowd, but they are not typically "collectors" in the way that people who value patina are.
     
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  6. Lapanouse Sep 29, 2016

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    I should add that the watch from that listing is a 67, without a doubt the most common cal 321 Speedmaster. One can probably find a half dozen of them listed on ebay at any given time, so the watch isn't rare. The price will likely go over 6k usd, and that is with NO patina at all. I passed on a 67 last week for 6500 usd with great patina and original bracelet. The bezel was incorrect. My point is only that the current focus on originality, as with classic cars, is fashion and trend, not law.
     
    mozartman likes this.
  7. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Sep 29, 2016

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    Fashion and trend still equal money, in most cases. This one may be the exception, but it doesn't establish anything we didn't already know.
     
  8. Lapanouse Sep 29, 2016

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    The danger is in established collectors telling new collectors what they should be collecting. Everyone should collect what they like, and the values will rise and fall based on the market. This watch is not an exception, and I never meant to imply "we" didn't already know all of this information. The sale was simply a good example that plenty of buyers like vintage watches that look more like new watches and that those of us with experience should not tell them what they should like.
     
  9. lillatroll Sep 29, 2016

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    I don t think I have read a thread on here where someone has claimed it to be law, most of the time the opinion given is that originallity is more desirable and will probably be valued higher than a watch with service parts. I am sure there are members here who are happy to buy without original parts, the really important thing to know is that you are paying for what you think you are getting and not paying top dollar for a less than top dollar watch.
     
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  10. harrymai86 Sep 29, 2016

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    If it is clarified, and you are happy with what you get, all is good.
     
    Lapanouse likes this.
  11. cottonlume Sep 29, 2016

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    one eBay post is supposed to prove the market values?
     
  12. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Sep 29, 2016

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    Exactly. Collect whatever you want, and the advice given to new collectors is typically just don't pay too much for a watch that has had a lot of it's value (not speaking just of money either) stripped away.

    Not sure where the idea comes from that this is some "law" laid down by collectors. Clearly many people here prefer patina over looking factory new. It's not a rule set by moderators or owners of the forum...at least I don't think there is a "Thou shalt love patina" commandment anywhere that I've seen here. It's just what the people who gravitate here mostly prefer.

    Advice and opinions are given freely here, so it's up to the individual to take it or not.
     
  13. dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Sep 29, 2016

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    You're also assuming its selling at that and not just being shilled
     
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  14. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Sep 29, 2016

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    It is not always evident to new collectors that originality is important. And by important, I mean valued by most serious collectors and, in general, the market. These new collectors may purchase a piece because of certain trendy buzz words (e.g. pre-moon, calatrava, military) and not realize that some parts of the watch are not original or that originality matters at all.

    There may be collectors who prefer a spotless redial to a dirty original one but I cannot help but think that the high prices achieved by many suspect watches are the result of naiveté rather than predilection.
     
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  15. WatchVaultNYC Sep 29, 2016

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    I make no opinion whether or not "original" is more desirable than "looks new", but it's interesting how some people think it's a defect that, for example, your 1970s watch does not have original hands. I mean, hands get routinely replaced all the time via the official maintenance route.

    Its like saying there's something wrong/fake/deficient with your 1970s car because the owner was crazy enough to replace the worn window wipers sometime in the past 40 years. "Desirable" is in the eyes of the collector, but refinished, service parts, etc, is clearly what is the "normal" path for watches as they age.
     
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  16. Andy K Dreaming about winning an OFfie one day. Sep 29, 2016

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    Which creates scarcity for the few survivors with the original parts, which drives up market price on these compared to ones with service parts.

    EDIT: forgot to add, you're correct, the ones with the service parts aren't necessarily "defective", just less desirable to collectors and commanding lower prices.
     
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  17. Lapanouse Sep 29, 2016

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    All thoughtful and reasonable feedback.
     
  18. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Sep 29, 2016

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    Well, it depends on the hands...the chronograph seconds hand on this watch for example (I realize this is not a 70's watch, but a little earlier):

    [​IMG]

    The service center would have looked at the split pipe:

    [​IMG]

    And they would have walked to the drawer, pulled out a current Speedmaster Pro hand, and stuck it on the watch. This, as you have noted, is standard procedure for service centers. I'm 100% sure they would not have fixed the pipe:

    [​IMG]

    Just because replacing vintage parts is common, doesn't mean it's desired, or the "correct" thing to do. Service centers could not care less about originality, as they want to make the watch look as new as possible. It's why so many times here people give advice to avoid service centers with vintage watches, and also why I am so busy...

    Cheers, Al
     
  19. Lapanouse Sep 29, 2016

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    Exactly. Nor is it incorrect to replace damaged parts. We are all in agreement.
     
  20. Rasputin The Mad Monk of OF Sep 29, 2016

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    I think as time progresses vintage watch collecting will start taking the same stance regarding originality as vintage car collecting. As original parts deteriorate and become scarcer, watch collectors will become more accepting of service and eventually aftermarket parts. Vintage parts are no longer being produced and do deteriorate with use/time. Otherwise keep your watches locked up and never wear them... just like the guy who keeps his vintage Ferrari in a garage to only admire it by staring at it.
     
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