The 50's Constellations are going up, particularly in the last year and most noticeable with the pie pans as you mentioned Mike. The previously less sought after Seamaster chronometers regardless of metal or age, seem to be on par or even outpacing most Constellations.

 

Yes, the 168.005 piepan connies have increased double in value in Asian market. An all original piepan gold capped with a 564 (black onyx inserts) can fetch up to 2K or more. (but they have to hold it in their hands with a loup...)

 

I'm still learning about the different sites and the investment aspects of this hobby. At this time I see my watches as something I enjoy looking at when I check the time rather than an investment. Can you please post a link?

 

Yes, please expound Hoi. In the US, stainless is the hottest & fastest case metal to sell. Solid gold is only second because the price is currently high, but it's not by much and will eventually be the preferred case metal to buy again.

 

Interesting point. One of the watches that seems to be a target for serious collectors (and I would include you in that category Mike) is the cal 551 model 14382 in Rose gold. It is one of three of the rarest of all the cal 500 - 564 pie pans. Also the 14382 with stepped pie pan dial with arrowheads races ahead of most 561/564 calibre pie pans in value and is very rare.

I think there's a growing realisation that only 37000 pieces of the cal 551 in total were produced, mostly in the earlier days of production of this calibre, and gold cal 551s in cases 14381, 14382, 14900, 167.005 (and the rarest of all - the 167.025 pie pan in the monocoque case) were produced in very significantly fewer numbers than cal 561/564 pie pans and thus it will be harder to find a medium quality example, let alone a pristine one. Black pie pan 14900s in 18k are like hen's teeth.

I know a few high-end collectors through my blog, some of whom run things past me when they source a good piece, who certainly light up when a good pie pan cal 551 surfaces, particularly the arrowhead markered 14381s and 14900s. So my feeling is that if there is a premium at all it would be in favour of the cal 551, that is, amongst what I would call 'astute' collectors who know their market inside-out and collect top-line examples only.

My experience is that stainless steel has it over gold cap. But if you were to put a sharp, original gold cap against an equivalent stainless, I don't believe there would be much in it. Maybe a hundred. Stainless cal 551 pie pans are not easy to come by in excellent condition and I would say there is a premium over and above a cal 561 for very sharp examples.

Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok seem to be major pie pan collecting centres, or at least selling centres, but South Korea and Japan have a lot of collectors too, if hits to my blog are anything to go by. But, still, the majority of search engine sources for page views are still the US (well ahead) and some European countries like the UK, Sweden, Italy, and Germany. Mind you I don't get any hits from China as I'm blocked there, but while I notice activity I still imagine the vintage market is yet to mature there.

Cheers

Desmond

 

So many things I could say about Desmond being blocked in PRC. But I just thought I would highlight it. Only the Chinese could consider Constellations a threat to Communism.

 

You have just karma-ed yourself into the eventual sale of that watch to me. It might not be next month, maybe not even next year, but sooner or later something will come up that forces you to make the call to me with the offer.... probably a crazy good deal on a pre-Professional that pops up immediately after you spent the whole watch kitty on something else.

 

Do the date versions command a significant premium over the non-date 167.005? Yes they do.

And the gold cap is valued more than stainless steel? Yes, it is.

And is it basically a piepan phenomenon over in Asia? Yes it is because it resembles a Ba Gua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba_gua)


People from different cultures value things differently. A gold capped is worth more than a SS.

A dial with black onyx inserts costs you more than a lume dial and certainly a 564 in 24 mil range costs more than a 561.

If you sale a perfect piepan solid gold or gold capped on eBay, you will see where it goes.




PS

95% VietNamese buyers hold an eBay account in the US, they can buy anything that doesn't ship internationally

 

I'm gonna start stockpiling stop signs!

 

Respectable Member dsio

Indeed, it is meant to be a simple posting and it has now caused some misinterpretation amongst fellow members.

There is no element in the posting to suggest its purchase is meant for investment purposes. Asking whether a certain vintage Omega will keep its value, when the time comes to upgrade it in five years' time should not be construed as buying and selling to make a profit or keeping the watch for investment purposes.

Long ago in the 50's - 70's, used and second-hand watches (the word vintage and rare were exclusively reserved for Patek Philippe and one or two others) were bought not for investment purposes but as of today, it is a totally different world, altogether. Before even buying a vintage-watch, one may ask whether he will make money when re-selling it. Anyway, there is nothing wrong with buying a vintage-watch for investment purposes. Are investors in vintage-watches still trying to hide behind the curtain and pretend they are watch-lovers? Perhaps.

A true watch-lover will buy a watch, with no intention of re-selling it. In the event he wants to purchase another watch and could not find money elsewhere, only then he will make an attempt to re-sell the watch. In the process of re-selling, if he were to lose some money, so what. A true watch-lover will not frown or whinge, while a dealer, a speculator or an investor would, and this is more than perhaps.

Vintage-watch collecting was supposed to be a pastime or a passion. It is now turning into a business venture. It had never been intended to be so. The population of totally genuine watch-lovers is thinning-off, while the population of vintage-watch dealers, speculators and investors is ever-growing. The spirit and beauty of vintage-watch collecting are fast eroding and will not come back. If only we could turn the clock back.

Thank-you.

 

Agree with Gator and Mike on the symmetry of the non-date pie pans.

Hoi that may be your experience, but I would still argue that the demand in some Asian countries must be balanced with global demand. While, again, yellow gold is generally sought-after in Asia, in western countries at this moment white metals are trendier and so globally I believe an SS will still stack up higher than a gold cap, and looking at auction reports of Connies in the higher-end vintage markets like Dr Crotts, Henry's, Christies, Phillips de Pury, Patrizzi, Southebys Important Watch auctions in Hong Kong, and even Antiquorum amongst others, will show you a different picture than the eBay experience.

Pie pan collecting is not just a recent phenomenon, but has had very strong support for the last twenty years and while Ba Gua may be be responsible for some (although I suspect not all by a long shot) oriental demand for these models, there is strong collector interest in the West for pie pans. I'm a tad mystified how an eight-sided figure can be seen to be alike a twelve-sided figure as they are two totally different pieces of geometry, but I'm willing to accept that some people would buy a pie pan for that reason. But just look at the pie pan roll amongst forum members here for an example - it's almost a right of passage amongst vintage collectors in the West to either own or to have owned one.

So, I would say that while Oriental interest is contributing to upward values of quality pie pans, it is but one contributing factor amongst others and not the singular cause. Over the last few years there has also been, in my experience, flourishing interest in pie pans in the West. Again, while Ba Gua may be the impetus for some Oriental interest in pie pans, I believe (and indeed know of) quite a number of oriental collectors who collect pie pans from the perspective of both horology and aesthetics and are very knowledgeable about what they collect - I would even call some of them experts. A couple of months ago while in correspondence with one HK collector I mentioned what I called the 'Ba Gua phenomenon' and he scoffed back a reply to the effect that maybe it's true for those who don't know much about watches. I would argue that there are many Asian centres where the level of collecting knowledge, sophistication and impetus goes well beyond that of what a dial reminds them of.

Seamonster, I agree with your sentiments, and to love and enjoy one's pieces is very important and, in my opinion, represents the emotional side of the collecting equation. But we are also rational human beings as well, and so issues such as value for money, whether values will be sustained or increased, which models or designs may be good to keep and indeed which models to acquire so as to flip later to fund a desired purchase have their place in watch collecting too. Some of us insist on wearing even our sharpest and most expensive acquisitions, while others will only display them. But in both instances great pleasure (emotion) can be experienced. Some collectors literally have eyegasms just looking at their displayed watches, which, to me, is the same experience of seeing and feeling it on the wrist There are some emotions, such as the uncontrollable compulsion to acquire, that need to be rationally controlled, and so, to me, collecting is all about finding a balance between head and heart and then going for it!

Cheers

Demsond

 

Desmond.

To make it short, how much do you think a guy from the West would pay for this one ?



and let's not go too far from the question from the OP

"......which vintage omegas have seen the fastest value appreciation in the past 3-5 years? In my observation it has been the piepan constellations in all metals. Plentiful enough to generate widespread enthusiasm and desire with the all original examples in excellent condition uncommon enough to drive prices up at least 50% during this timeframe. And I think the growth in value of this segment is driven by the Asian market (which incidentally is also the main driver for growth in the sales and prices of omega watches in general whether modern or vintage)....."