Fake Daytona

wsfarrell · Oct 17, 2020

From Rolex Forums:
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=770352
A fake 1970 Daytona sold at Antiquorum in June for 45,000 CHF, then appeared at HQ Milton for $60,000 USD. After this blew up, HQ removed the listing and returned the watch to the consigner. Moral: don't trust your "trusted" dealer. Dealers are out to make quick profits, and most don't want to spend a lot of time authenticating watches.

This watch was well-done: Someone bought real papers on eBay (I believe), then had a case made up to match the serial. The dial was real, and the movement, though cobbled up, apparently was mostly genuine. The biggest tell was the fake bezel. As dealers who have seen scores (if not hundreds) of vintage Daytonas, Antiquorum and HQ Milton should have spotted this. Very disturbing.

SurvivingJoe · Oct 17, 2020

The market has been disturbed for quite a long time due to high profit. Expert assembed "legit" vintage watch by use different parts from different watchs and sold, which has been complained for quite a time. And your post shows even a full set need to be reviewed carefully. Basically don't trust anyone, dealers/so called experts/auction Corp, who knows what's behind their behaviors.

Marsimaxam · Oct 18, 2020

This is nothing new...

https://perezcope.com/2018/07/17/vintage-rolex-daytonas-from-hell-at-antiquorum/

watch3s · Oct 19, 2020

yikes! vintage has always been a minefield to me, and some references are bigger mines than others

janice&fred · Oct 19, 2020

Most high end dealers and collectors I know have been avoiding daytonas, red subs and almost all vintage Tudor subs for years. Especially in the Philippines as the Vietnamese master crafters simply hop a plane for the short flight and fool many with their expertly created and wabied vintage wares. They even have Filipino partners that front the watches so no one catches on where the stuff came from. Many of them get passed along and end up stateside for the big bucks. Has anyone seen those near perfect pie pan cases and dial kits?

asrnj77 · Oct 19, 2020

In the US they have something called title washing. Somebody can take a salvaged vehicle title that was destroyed and fix up the car. They can take the title to another state that doesn’t list salvaged on transferred titles. They take the new title and bring it to a third state for a fresh title that doesn’t list any damage and appears legit.

similar in this case that the AQ auction made HQ Milton assume it was legit and gave it only a cursory glance. Had it not been caught it would have been legitimized via both AQ and HQ Milton and the next buyer wouldn’t think twice (maybe now they will)

it also sounds to me like the consignor knew it was fake. After sellers fees they were basically trying to sell it for what they paid only months after buying it.

eugeneandresson · Oct 19, 2020

Poor Haywood! (nearly choked on my tea LOL)

wsfarrell · Oct 19, 2020

asrnj77
In the US they have something called title washing. Somebody can take a salvaged vehicle title that was destroyed and fix up the car. They can take the title to another state that doesn’t list salvaged on transferred titles. They take the new title and bring it to a third state for a fresh title that doesn’t list any damage and appears legit.

similar in this case that the AQ auction made HQ Milton assume it was legit and gave it only a cursory glance. Had it not been caught it would have been legitimized via both AQ and HQ Milton and the next buyer wouldn’t think twice (maybe now they will)

it also sounds to me like the consignor knew it was fake. After sellers fees they were basically trying to sell it for what they paid only months after buying it.

Not sure it was that complicated. As I mentioned in the original post, it's easy to buy genuine papers on eBay--there are hundreds of them. Then you have a Vietnamese casemaker produce a case with a serial number that matches the papers.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolex-Dayt...076399?hash=item48ef84646f:g:Ba8AAOSwT3VfhQpi

Marsimaxam · Oct 19, 2020

janice&fred
Most high end dealers and collectors I know have been avoiding daytonas, red subs and almost all vintage Tudor subs for years. Especially in the Philippines as the Vietnamese master crafters simply hop a plane for the short flight and fool many with their expertly created and wabied vintage wares. They even have Filipino partners that front the watches so no one catches on where the stuff came from. Many of them get passed along and end up stateside for the big bucks. Has anyone seen those near perfect pie pan cases and dial kits?

Damn scary times. I'm glad I bought decades ago as things weren't so devious. It was a lot different when these models, although still expensive, were all selling between 2 and 8k. It's crazy seeing the prices some of these vintage models are selling for in today's market and not just Rolex... Omega too, think 2915 and 2998.

jhross98 · Oct 19, 2020

this is why. . there is only guy on earth i'd buy a daytona from. there simply isn't any way for even a knowledgeable collector to figure out what is real and what is put together.

(and this post wasn't meant as a "plug", but that one guy is eric wind

ATWG · Oct 19, 2020

Dealers are becoming complacent and brazen in their business practices, it’s gotten way too easy to make money. Just follow their IG posts, you’ll see a watch trade hands multiple times among them. It’s almost a game of cat and mouse. Eventually, the cat will get the mouse if you build a big enough trap. All of them are guilty, trust none, including all the above mentioned, I have stories on all of them.

However, it is getting absurd as of late, the fake Daytona this week and the redone Gilt GMT which was sold for $80k a few weeks back as all original. In both cases the mouse trap worked. And in both cases the watches traded hands among multiple reputable dealers. When large sums of money is involved, integrity goes out the window....they just can’t resist the temptation.

No plug necessary here, we know who he is and what he is....

Fake Daytona

wsfarrell

SurvivingJoe

Marsimaxam

watch3s

janice&fred

asrnj77

eugeneandresson

wsfarrell

Marsimaxam

jhross98

ATWG

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