The title of this thread is not a typo! But I would like to open a discussion concerning the succession and, sometimes, the mixt of the French mention "Fab suisse" and the English one "Suiss" or "Swiss made" on the dials of Omegas designed for the French market.


First, I would like to make a quick observation. I know many collectors prefer full Swiss watches, and so consider foreign gold cases as less collectible. I like Swiss gold cases as well, but I consider gold French cases and gold English cases as very collectible.
First of all, the quality of the case is good, and sometimes is better (yes!) that the one of the Swiss sisters. I have a (pretty rare) Dennisson 18K gold case that is of excellent quality, with a back thicker than many Swiss Omega ones of the same period. Some French gold cases are of the best quality as well. But I would say that the quality of these English and French cases is probably more iregular. For instance, I have seens some French gold bezels that are very solid, other that are like a piece of paper...
Second, English and French gold cases do have an identity. Not only are they usually signed, but they also include other marks that permit to identify the case or even the watch. It is particular true for some French cases that includes a serial number and, more rarely I think, a "reference" number, generally with 4 or 6 digit - but I am not sure of the meaning of these numbers.

Now, I would like to discuss a specific issue. We all have seen French cased Omega with dials contening "Fab. suisse" (or "Fabriqué en Suisse", or "Importé de Suisse") or "Swiss made" (or "Swiss") - this is also true for other brands, see for instance this nice Longines posted by @MikeMan2727: https://omegaforums.net/threads/fab-suisse-roll-call.20625/page-2#post-813800). I have also seen dials with ""Fab Swiss"" - but fakes are not my current topic! We have also seen dials with both Fab suisse and Swiss. I have too, but never really thought of that strange thing, and even happened once to forget they exist...

But why should it be necessary to write the origin of the watch both in French and in English? It is true that many case back do that, but dials are another matter, and one would think that one is enough. So I would like to sum up some infos, and then to open a discussion.

We know that the French law made mandatory to clearly state the origin of foreign products in order not to mislead the consumer. Obviously, for watches, the dials are the best place to write this origin! This law is rather old (1892), but in the 192X it begins to be more stricly enforced. As the Swiss brands often had French names, they were particularly concerned by this law. In the 1936, the law even made mandatory to put the rider very close to the brand name - if posssible. It is important to notice that this riders were supposed to be in French.
As far as I know, there is not clear end for that low. But it has more and more been enforced in a less strict way. The rider could then be in English, and was even no longer mandatory if the product did not contain something misleading.

Concerning the Swiss regulations, we know that full Swiss watches did not have to have "Swiss made" or "Swiss" before a Swiss law of 1972. But the watch Swiss cartel started using the "Swiss made" as a label in the 1930's. Collectors know that the lack of a Swiss made (or a Swiss) for watches of the 1940's is normal, and that it can also happen sometimes on watches of the 1950's. After that period, the lack of the Swiss made is usually regarded as a sign of a redial.

So, if we combine those two relgulations, we understand why there could have existed several cases:

1) French gold cased watches with nothing on the dial - but I do know any example of that situation. It could only be possible for watches before 1924, and I do not know any French gold cased watch of that period.

2) French gold cased watches and Swiss cased watches, produced before the 1930'S, with a Fab suisse (or Importé de Suisse) at the bottom of the dial. See for instance the nice example posted by @Tire-comedon here: https://omegaforums.net/threads/fab-suisse-roll-call.20625/page-2#post-813800)

3) French gold cased watches and Swiss cased watches, produced since the 1930'S, with a Fab suisse (or Importé de Suisse) under the brand name. Many watches are in this situation. For instance, one of my French gold cased Omega. Many other examples on OF, for instance here: https://omegaforums.net/threads/fab-suisse-roll-call.20625/page-2#post-813800



4) French gold cased watches and Swiss cased watches with (only) a Swiss made (or Swiss) - as far as I know, always at the bottom of the dial. Again, many examples, in particular in the 1950's. Here are three of my French gold cased Omega:

Automatic with a cal 501, from around 1958:



A cal 285 from around 1961:


And my favorite, a cal 284, in an exellent condition (sorry for the poor pics!) - and with the original buckle! - from around 1956:




6) French gold cased watches and Swiss cased watches with both a Fab Swiss and a Swiss made - but I remember only examples with gold cases. This situation is interesting because it could be sort of a transition. Several nice examples can be found on OF, in particular the one posted by @mac_omega): https://omegaforums.net/threads/fab-suisse-roll-call.20625/


The fact that a dial could have both a Fab suisse and a Swiss made could reveal several things. But here I am only speculating and making hypotheses. And I would like to ask you help for complementary informations and examples.

First, it indicates that, at some point, the two regulations were regarded as not identical and not substitutable. But, second, it could also indicate that Fab suisse was added on dials that already contained a Swiss made. Otherwise, I would think that, for the Swiss regulation (which, at that time, was rather a commercial one), Fab suisse would be enough.
Third, this situation could be regarded as a transitional one. I am under the impression that watches having both the French and the English riders belong to the early 1950's. But I do not own any of them, so I would like to ask your help here, because most of the examples I have found online (in particular on OF!) do not show the movement's serial numbers, and thus do not permitt a precise datation. After this period watches only had Swiss made or Swiss. But I think there was not any clear transition and the two situations could occur during the late 1940's-early 1950's. I remember a thread where someone posted three very nice examples of similar watches, but with different riders. I could not find it again, but will keep trying.

What do you think of all this? Do you think the idea of a transitional period, around the 1950's, is correct? Do you have examples of watches confirming or invalidating the datations I gave?

 

wow. impressive research. i'll be curious to see other replies, sorry I don't have any useful info to contribute.

 

There is also "Importe de Suisse" as shown on @LouS collection of Zeniths:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/french-cased-bumpers.66437/

 

Thanks! A Importé de Suisse at this place of the dial is pretty rare in my record.

 

Good research! I will add a tangentially related point, which is that in my experience, there is another reason why French (or English, for that matter) market models can be desirable: they occasionally feature interesting and attractive design variations beyond the cases.

Here, for example, is a Longines Flagship with a (very nice) blued second hand that I have yet to find on Swiss versions.

 

A polyglot Marvin

 

Thanks! Very nice! From the 1930's?

 

You can find Fab Suisse+Swiss dials on Heuer Carreras and Autavias, so I'd suggest this practice lasted at least until the early 70s

(pic from the web)

 

Newly acquired 'Swiss made'



Mrs S was hoping 'Fab Swiss' might be another article on the great Roger F

 

Thanks! I did not know that.

I would not have thought Fab Suisse could still be found so late. Thus I wonder why it can be found on some brands at that time, and no longer on other. Any clue?

 

Thanks. Is that a French gold cased watch?

 

Inertia? Countries might have changed the marking requirements, but corporate procedures addressing old(er) regulations might not have been updated.

 

Thanks for asking.
It’s a very new acquisition and I know very little about it. I think it’s all Swiss and is 40 micron gp, but the eBay vendor suggested it was either NOS or unworn.

 

Yes, the Preserval brevet is from 1937

 

Thanks Bubba! Very interesting doc!

 

I agree. From what I saw, Heuer is the last one I know of using Fab Suisse dials(late 60s, possibly early 70s)

Just from my observations an approximation of the last use of the Fab Suisse by brand.
Longines(early 1960s)
Omega(late 1950s)
Zenith(late 1950s)
Heuer(late 1960s)
JLC (late 1950s)
Patek Philippe(early 1950s)
Brands I have never seen a Fab Suisse dial: Rolex/Tudor, IWC, UG, VC

As I said this is only a rough estimation from what I know; new facts may emerge

 

Thanks! Interesting observations!

This diversity concerning the time Fab suisse ended is not too surprising: there was no clear end of the French obligation. So every brand could do pretty much whaterver they wanted or thought relevant since, say, the 1950's.

But now I wonder why some brands seemed to have never used the Fab. suisse - if this fact is confirmed. I can think of three reasons:

- they did not sell watches in France during the 1920's-1940's. It sounds odd for brands like CV, Rolex, etc.., though. But it is true I cannot remember of a French gold cased Rolex or CV produced during that period.
- they were permitted to use Swiss or Swiss made - maybe because their name or something else could not mislead the consumer on the foreign origin of the watch - but that sounds odd to me as the French law was pretty strict during the 1920's-1930's;
- they find a way to get round the law!

 

Here's a Longines 23ZS from October 1963 (serial 11.6 mil) destined for the Swiss market. I confirmed with the Longines heritage museum that "Fab Suisse" was used for Swiss destined watches occasionally as well.

 

Thanks!
That is interesting! I thought the Swiss regulation (or the commercial label) only used Swiss made or Swiss. Anymay, I guess watches like your nice Longines with both Swiss made and Fab suisse were destined for the French market.

 

This was my understanding as well! I was surprised as well. Perhaps some watches destined for French speaking retailers in Switzerland were marked this way? Or perhaps the invoice can be to Switzerland but final destination would be France. Unfortunately the heritage museum couldn't provider further information.