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I've actively avoided buying a few pieces because of radium lume. I have a toddler and am paranoid about him somehow breaking a watch and touching/ingesting the lume.
Also, I'm glad that people are mentioning the radon issue. That seems like potentially a bigger concern than the alpha particles from the radium lume itself.
So....
what numbers do you see through the caseback?
Radium, no T next to Swiss and color indicates radium to me.
Thank you. I thought there was a time early in the beginnings of tritium’s useage before they realized that differentiating with a T would be helpful.
No claim of authority, and might be a minor issue, but I have a hard time dismissing the radon aspect.
As part of a good thread on the topic https://omegaforums.net/threads/radiation-concerns-part-2.79191/page-4#post-1307034 I measured somewhat disconcerting radon levels in open air near an old Navy Deck clock on the mantle.
Radon levels dropped significantly once away from the clock. The amount of lume on the clock is large compared to a single watch (though a radium watch collection might be equivalent). Storage method surely makes a big difference on exposure. Exposure dynamics are certainly different between a home mantle clock and a wrist-worn watch.
Still, my guess is less radon is better than more radon so I've moved the clock to the garage for now. Ditto a WWII Omega pocket watch with big radium-coated hands, numbers, and hour markers.
Thank you, Carl. I hadn't considered the potentially confounding effect of nearby radium.
You are correct on alpha particle detection and this was mentioned by @padders in the earlier 'radiation part 2' thread. In the same thread @Dan S points out the typically isolated nature or radon-source alpha emissions inside a shielded sample chamber (Dan also contributed to the MWR thread you reference)
Airthing's website explains the basics of meter operation:
https://www.airthings.com/resources/radon-detector
A photodetector senses alpha decay in a chamber as a proxy for Radon and "This chamber is where the detector analyzes your home’s air. Chrome is used in the chamber, which is constructed in such a way that it is a sort of cage against which unwanted particles are barred".
While they do not specifically say, I would think the chamber blocks external (radium dial) alpha emissions.
From the NRC wording it wouldn't seem to take much to effectively isolate alpha emissions in a chamber;
https://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/radiation/health-effects/radiation-basics.html#alpha
"In general, alpha particles have a very limited ability to penetrate other materials. In other words, these particles of ionizing radiation can be blocked by a sheet of paper, skin, or even a few inches of air."
Could the 0.2mm chamber orifice mentioned in the Airthings writeup be a sneak path (break in the alpha shield) and was I close enough that alpha particles were still reaching the meter (about 2-3" away from clock)? Given NRC wording, wouldn't a clock/watch case be a decent alpha shield anyway?
Bad data makes for bad decisions, and I'd love to be wrong about what my meter is telling me. For now I'm inclined to believe the readings until it is clear that 1) alpha particles from dial radium would reach the meter and 2) the meter chamber is 'leaky' and measuring these external alpha particles.
I may be over-reacting even if data is correct but that's a separate matter related to my not understanding what constitutes acceptable exposure.
I just upgraded my dosimeter because I have a watch that got off the scale...
I was able to measure almost 90 uSv/h and over 13,000 CPM
What do you guys think? Would you wear this?
Based on the radon measurement via alpha-detection as discussed up-thread I wanted to further understand whether radon measurements were influenced by proximal radium.
Two exercises were run in parallel.
1) Contact Airthings directly about the Home meter and our question about meter accuracy with radium nearby
2) Do a semi-sealed enclosure test with a pocket watch and Airthings meter having ~15-20cm separation (longer than alpha particle travel distances as I understand it)
Short version of results: a) The meter is only reading the radon levels (via alpha particle proxy) and not being fooled by any radium in the neighborhood b) one can achieve quite a high concentration of radon with a single radium-rich dial in a small closed volume.
Just reporting some findings. Still pondering what they mean and any other thoughts are of interest. I tried to follow the radiation dosage chart above and it only confirmed that I don't understand much about relative radiation risks.
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Long version of results:
1) Company responds (nice!) that meter is accurately reading radon levels and not being influenced by proximal radium
Hi David,
My name is Laoise and I am the Customer Support Specialist here at Airthings. I asked our in-house CERN scientist, and this was his reply:
Your question: In other words, is the meter still accurate when in close proximity (say <10cm apart) to a strong alpha emitter like these radium-bearing timepieces?
The answer is yes. The alpha particles from the radium in the watches can not reach the photodiode sensor inside the diffusion (decay) chamber.
If there is anything else I can help you with, please let me know! Thanks for being an Airthings customer 😁
All the best,
Laoise
Airthings support
2) My testing would seem to confirm the answer from Airthings.
Watch and meter were sealed in a generic food storage container. Surely not hermetic, but decent, and separation should be enough to diminish radium alpha particle influence. Airthing meter spiked in a matter of hours to saturation at 500.0 pCi/L 😲.
For reference, my typical home levels are 0.5-1.5 pCi/L depending on the meter location and day. Readings typically take a day to begin. Problematic levels begin in the 4 pCi/L range (again as I understand it).
I removed meter to inside and put watch in garage. After a reset it again quickly spiked to 500 pCi/L, presumably from retained radon in the diffusion chamber. Then tried to "air out the chamber" by going outside on a breezy day and waving it around for 15 seconds. Reset. Still spiked to 500 pCi/L quickly, though not quite as quick. Reset, and just let sit for a while ... down to 194pCi/L after ~12 hrs. Reset. After 24 hours I'm quickly approaching a typical ~1pCi/L. Sounds a lot like captured radon in the chamber slowly dissipating/decaying, all without any radium nearby.
This is all consistent with my observations and the information from the company sounds absolutely correct to me (i.e. the detector is shielded from ambient radiation). As you found, the radon emitted from a watch if contained in a small container will reach high concentration levels, and it doesn't dissipate readily without convection because radon is very dense. The only additional thing to keep in mind is that health effects are mainly associated with the total dose of radon inhaled, which is calculated as being due to a constant background level that is inhaled multiple times per minute, assuming a standard tidal volume. Despite the high concentration of radon in that container, the total dose of radon is tiny because of the small volume. To get a feeling for this dose issue, here is a rough calculation that I posted on WUS a while back, which was based on a measurement I made of 125 pCi/L when I put my meter in a container with 10 radium watches. My radium watches are not as heavily lumed as yours, and are more representative of 1950s wristwatches.
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For a back-of-the-envelope wildly conservative estimate of the maximum dose one could potentially receive from opening a watch box, let's compare the total daily dose of radon one receives at outdoors background levels (approximately one-tenth the level considered hazardous) to an exaggerated dose that one could possibly receive from two daily episodes of sticking one's head into a sealed container of watches and breathing deeply for 30 seconds each time (1 minute total).
Outdoor background: (0.4 pCi/L)*(20,000 inhalations/day)*(0.5 L/inhalation) = 4,000 pCi.
Sealed container: (125 pCi/L)*(15 inhalations/minute)*(0.5 L/inhalation) = 937 pCi.
So even in the unlikely case that you would breath deeply for a full minute from the air at the bottom of a closed container holding 10 radium-lumed watches (and assuming that there is enough radon-laden air in the watch box to fill your lungs for that whole time), your total dose would only be about one-quarter of the dose you receive daily from outdoors ambient levels, which is itself 10 times smaller than the dose considered to be dangerous. So this one-minute deep-breathing exercise from your watch box represents about 2% of a hazardous daily dose of radon. And of course, because the assumptions used in this calculation are exaggerated (e.g. there is not actually 7.5L of radon-laden air in the watch-box, it's not likely that you would inhale the air from the bottom of the box, etc.), the actual dose you would receive from opening your watch box would be much lower.
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To make the calculation more directly relevant to your experiment, you could replace the total dose from the sealed container to be the actual total amount of radon in that container, which is obviously the upper limit. This would be (500 pCi/L)*(1L)=500 pCi. This is assuming it was a 1L container. Of course it's unlikely you would be able to inhale all of the radon out of that container without trying really hard, but that is the maximum dose you could get, compared to about 4,000 pCi each day from outdoors background, which is the absolute minimum we are all exposed to.
These are all just numbers, and I'm not telling people whether or not to be concerned about increasing their exposure to radon by even a small amount. But data are data, and we can't ignore them. When you multiply the concentration by the volume (which is the relevant calculation), the numbers make more sense.