Differerent winding 'feel' to identical same-era movements...321s, 861s, 1861s

john_coburg · Feb 28, 2021

Greetings all,
I have a question about the 'feel' of the winding mechanisms on Speedmaster movements, and how they seem to (randomly) differ in their feel/action. To start with, i have a couple of early/mid 60s Ed Whites, and with one, when winding the crown, it stops firmly when you stop winding and let it go, whereas with the other, it 'pulls back' a little when you let go of the crown. Not sure of the correct term for this (it might not have a name) yet i find this frequently with old manual wind movements. It's as if the click is angled differently somehow, or perhaps worn, so that when you let go, it lets the main spring unravel a fraction of a turn. It makes it feel a little clumsy/springy and isn't anything like as satisfying as those crowns with a 'tighter grip' that stop firmly when you stop winding.
I thought this might just occur on old (eg. 321) movements, perhaps due to wear...but i have a couple of 70s 861s, both similar-era 145.022s, one winder is firm, the other 'pulls back' when let go. So then i thought it was just 'vintage' movements...but i have a FOIS (very firm) and a '57 60th anniversary (gives 'pull back'), both with 1861s and both just a few years old.
So what is causing this? is it considered an 'error' or problem (with or without consequences?), that would generally be addressed with a service? or is it something that is fairly easily adjustable if i open the back?
Thank you all vm.

Archer · Feb 28, 2021

The way the click works on the ratchet wheel will allow the ratchet wheel to back up slightly after reaching full wind. It is not a problem, it's the way it's designed to work.

If the crown backs up is related mostly to the condition of the seal inside the crown. New crowns can be very tight on the case tube, so the crown won't back up. Older crowns where the seal is hardened might back up more, unless they are dirty or starting to turn to black goop.

Nothing to "solve" at service because it's not a problem with the movement.

Canuck · Feb 28, 2021

In a recent thread, the fact that some manual wind Speedmasters tend to “bank” when fully wound, was discussed. I have never encountered the phenomenon, personally. “Banking” can cause a watch to gain rather a lot of time, until balance wheel amplitude drops off to the point where it no longer banks. Manual wind watches are designed specifically to allow the winding crown to back off a bit when winding ceases. This happens when the recoil click that operates on the ratchet wheel, recoils. This allows the ratchet wheel (and thence the entire manual winding system) to back up a bit. This is built in to the manual wind systems to reduce the risk of the watch banking when fully wound. If you have a manual wind watch that has a winding crown that doesn’t reverse a bit when winding ceases, the crown is likely too tight a fit on the case tube. And no! There is nothing you can do on a Speedmaster (or any manual wind watch) to reduce this tendency, by taking the case back off. But most particularly on a Speedmaster where all the manual winding parts are on the underside of the bridge over the train wheels! You do not have a problem,

john_coburg · Feb 28, 2021

Canuck
In a recent thread, the fact that some manual wind Speedmasters tend to “bank” when fully wound, was discussed. I have never encountered the phenomenon, personally. “Banking” can cause a watch to gain rather a lot of time, until balance wheel amplitude drops off to the point where it no longer banks. Manual wind watches are designed specifically to allow the winding crown to back off a bit when winding ceases. This happens when the recoil click that operates on the ratchet wheel, recoils. This allows the ratchet wheel (and thence the entire manual winding system) to back up a bit. This is built in to the manual wind systems to reduce the risk of the watch banking when fully wound. If you have a manual wind watch that has a winding crown that doesn’t reverse a bit when winding ceases, the crown is likely too tight a fit on the case tube. And no! There is nothing you can do on a Speedmaster (or any manual wind watch) to reduce this tendency, by taking the case back off. But most particularly on a Speedmaster where all the manual winding parts are on the underside of the bridge over the train wheels! You do not have a problem,

Archer
The way the click works on the ratchet wheel will allow the ratchet wheel to back up slightly after reaching full wind. It is not a problem, it's the way it's designed to work.

If the crown backs up is related mostly to the condition of the seal inside the crown. New crowns can be very tight on the case tube, so the crown won't back up. Older crowns where the seal is hardened might back up more, unless they are dirty or starting to turn to black goop.

Nothing to "solve" at service because it's not a problem with the movement.

Thanks @Archer and @Canuck. I think you've probably correctly identified what i'm trying to describe ("backing up" and "backing off" respectively) , but then again i'm not convinced, as you both mention this happening only when fully wound. i am speaking about a 'back up' (perhaps 15-25°) of the crown every time i turn it. So as i'm winding (from any state of wound-down), every time i let go of the crown to reposition my fingers to rotate it another 180° or so, it 'backs up' a little. (or at least some do.... some don't) It doesn't make a 'click', so i suspect the click spring isn't very tight, and it winds back to whever the click tooth naturally 'rests'. Or something like that?

You're both saying it's not a 'problem' per se, so nothing to worry about... but i find it odd that i'm finding it on modern and vintage pieces, regardless of movement - and some (same calibre and era) movements don't show it at all. Something in each of my 321s (and 861s and 1861s) is different. And most imporantly, given it doens't make for a nice 'action', can it really not be adjusted/eliminated...?

Dan S · Feb 28, 2021

john_coburg
Thanks @Archer and @Canuck. I think you've probably correctly identified what i'm trying to describe ("backing up" and "backing off" respectively) , but then again i'm not convinced, as you both mention this happening only when fully wound. i am speaking about a 'back up' (perhaps 15-25°) of the crown every time i turn it. So as i'm winding (from any state of wound-down), every time i let go of the crown to reposition my fingers to rotate it another 180° or so, it 'backs up' a little. (or at least some do.... some don't) It doesn't make a 'click', so i suspect the click spring isn't very tight, and it winds back to whever the click tooth naturally 'rests'. Or something like that?

You're both saying it's not a 'problem' per se, so nothing to worry about... but i find it odd that i'm finding it on modern and vintage pieces, regardless of movement - and some (same calibre and era) movements don't show it at all. Something in each of my 321s (and 861s and 1861s) is different. And most imporantly, given it doens't make for a nice 'action', can it really not be adjusted/eliminated...?

I think that @Archer and @Canuck explained exactly why different watches, even with the same movement, might have a different feeling of recoil. Their explanations made perfect sense to me. They also did not say that recoil happens only when fully wound, but that it's a feature designed to address an issue that happens when fully wound.

I'd suggest you go back and read their posts carefully and try to understand the actual concepts they described, including the click mechanism, why it is designed the way it is, and how the feeling of winding is affected by a tight seal in the crown tube.

cvalue13 · Feb 28, 2021

john_coburg
i am speaking about a 'back up' (perhaps 15-25°) of the crown every time i turn it. So as i'm winding (from any state of wound-down), every time i let go of the crown to reposition my fingers to rotate it another 180° or so, it 'backs up' a little. (

my brand new EW321 does this

Canuck · Feb 28, 2021

@john_coburg

Please re-read my post. I said “when winding ceases”! I did not say it only happens when fully wound! Each time you turn the winding crown, then release it, preparing to turn it again, the recoil click in the winding mechanism should allow the ratchet wheel to back up a bit. And subsequently, the rest of the manual wind mechanisms. If your winding crown is too tight on the case tube, the crown may not back up. Take my word for it! You do NOT have a problem! Your watches are designed to do as you describe, unless you have a crown that is overly tight on the case tube! You describe “not hearing a click” when the crown backs up. Few of us have hearing that is acute enough to hear the recoil click when it backs up. Save your OCD for things that really matter.

drhombus24 · Feb 28, 2021

I’ve noticed the same thing. I’ve had 4 different watches with the 1861/1863 and they all felt very different when winding. As mentioned above, it’s probably not an issue

Archer · Mar 1, 2021

john_coburg
Thanks @Archer and @Canuck. I think you've probably correctly identified what i'm trying to describe ("backing up" and "backing off" respectively) , but then again i'm not convinced, as you both mention this happening only when fully wound.

No, I didn't say "only" when fully wound. Please watch this video - if you remain "unconvinced" after watching this, then not sure what to say...

john_coburg · Mar 1, 2021

Archer
No, I didn't say "only" when fully wound. Please watch this video - if you remain "unconvinced" after watching this, then not sure what to say...

Canuck
@john_coburg

Please re-read my post. I said “when winding ceases”! I did not say it only happens when fully wound! Each time you turn the winding crown, then release it, preparing to turn it again, the recoil click in the winding mechanism should allow the ratchet wheel to back up a bit. And subsequently, the rest of the manual wind mechanisms. If your winding crown is too tight on the case tube, the crown may not back up. Take my word for it! You do NOT have a problem! Your watches are designed to do as you describe, unless you have a crown that is overly tight on the case tube! You describe “not hearing a click” when the crown backs up. Few of us have hearing that is acute enough to hear the recoil click when it backs up. Save your OCD for things that really matter.

Thanks @Archer, and @Canuck, i reread both your messages and it is making a lot more sense now - apologies for the haste in replying. So they all (or at least should) back-up a little, the difference in sensation stemming from differing hardness of the seal and hence tightness of the crown on the case-tube. That makes sense... except for the two 1861s both being only 2/3yrs old apiece, and feeling very different, but i guess there's a degree of randomness to the crown seal.
The only other question on the matter i have outstanding is why there is (seemingly) never any recoil on an automatic movement winder...presumably because the risk of 'banking' on a full wind isn't possible in the case of (most) automatics?

Canuck · Mar 1, 2021

The automatic movement is a different animal. Not all automatics have an automatic wind system with a rotor that winds both clockwise and anti-clockwise. But let’s discuss one that does wind both ways. A component called a reverser gear (or 2 reverser gears) allows the ratchet wheel to wind in the correct winding direction, regardless of which direction the rotor is turning. The change in the winding action is instantaneous, as the rotor changes direction. So there is not a tendency for the winding system to “reverse”, as rotor direction changes. Same goes when you wind an automatic, manually. The reverser (or reversers) prevent the “backing up” sensation you get with a manual winder. There is a recoiling click on the ratchet wheel of a automatic, as well. That recoil click acts differently on a manual winder. On a manual winder, the recoil click stores accumulated power of the mainspring. In an automatic, it is the reversers that do that. When automatic winding ceases and the watch continues to run, the recoil click will back up to its “full stop” position, after 15 to 20 minutes, or so. As to “banking” when fully wound? The mainspring on a manual winder has the outer end latched firmly to the barrel wall. The mainspring in an automatic interfaces with the internal barrel wall through a bridle, or calibrated clutch which is designed to slip.

Differerent winding 'feel' to identical same-era movements...321s, 861s, 1861s

john_coburg

Archer

Canuck

john_coburg

Dan S

cvalue13

Canuck

drhombus24

Archer

john_coburg

Canuck

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