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Dial Question: Longines One Button Flyback Chronograph

  1. gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Mar 23, 2013

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    This listing states:

    My personal opinion is that this dial is not original and is a decently redone dial. I do believe that these came in the configuration stated with the script "Patent". However, the quality of the printing on this example is not anywhere near factory spec. Vintage watches with sub-second or chronograph dials generally have printing that goes out to the edge of the subdial. This one does not. Please note that I am commenting only on the dial, the rest of the watch looks good to me.

    I think the example below has an original dial, right down to the red marking at 12 that I believe all varieties of dials of this reference had that feature:

    [​IMG]

    Not very pretty, but then again it was sold as a watchmaker's special.

    I'm sorry, but I have to call this as I see it. Mods, please feel free to modify or delete this post if I have overstepped the boundary.
    gatorcpa
     
  2. woodwkr2 Mar 23, 2013

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    I think I beat you to it (note the revised description before you finished your post). And no you have not overstepped the boundary, rather I appreciate your knowledge. Dennis shared his concerns with me about the dial and I have been researching the matter further over the last hour or so. I believe that there were several iterations of these flyback dials:
    • It appears that there were two different fonts for "Longines" a thinner and thicker variety. My example being closer to thicker variety (though slightly less crisp).
    • The "Patent" text is more commonly found above the subdial in print; less commonly in script below the "Longines"
    • The presence of the red marking at 12 O'Clock has been a feature in about 50-60% of the examples that I have seen (and that themselves were not obvious re-dials)
    • Beyond the dial, you will also find that there are several varieties with regards to the hands; there was a thick blue center minute recording hand, as well as a thin center minute recording hand
    I will point out my own (recent) concerns about the dial:
    • The subseconds hand is correct, and your concerns are well founded as it would be very unusual for the marking not to extend to the edge of the subdial, and past the length of the hand.
    • The subseconds scale may be very subtly off center. I have scrutinized this and from some angles is appears off center. From other angles it does not.
    • As mentioned above, I believe that the thicker typeface for the "Longines" is consistent with other examples, but it is not as crisp and clean.
    • The dial on my example is not marked Swiss (or anything) at 6 O'Clock
    There may be other things that come to light too, but this is what I have come up with. Regardless, I think it is reasonable and fair to conclude that the dial is 100% original (the Breguet numerals are impeccable), but it likely represents an earlier redial and is therefore NOT original factory finish or factory paint as I originally put forward in my description.

    I do believe that this would be an interesting area for further research, and will happily contribute and be educated as people step forward with more information and vouchsafe references. While I am a knowledgable collector (and recently, dealer), I cannot claim voluminous knowledge with Longines. I will point out too, that I have contacted the Longines Historical Archives with a request on this piece and sent them pictures of the dial, so I look forward to what their record can contribute to the discussion.
     
  3. dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Mar 23, 2013

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    I've moved these two posts to a new thread as to keep them out of the sales thread, the seller has revised his FS listing to mention that he's been told it is a redial, others have also raised that it is a likely redial separately
     
  4. LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member Mar 23, 2013

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    Here's another example from the 'bay.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Lon...016634140?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item23294af71cPurchases made through these links may earn this site a commission from the eBay Partner Network

    The examples found in Goldberger (see esp. pp 150-151) support the dial configuration of the ebay example as original, and none have anything like that flamboyant cursive "Patent"

    Another tell suggesting redial on the OP's watch is the mis-sized printing of the seconds subdial - normally, the printing more or less exactly fills the area allotted to the subdial. In this case, it is not only too small, but off-center.
     
  5. gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Mar 23, 2013

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    OK by me. Our aim is to get to the right answer and we've done that here.

    My only quibble is the use of the word "original" to describe the dial in any manner. Once the original paint and markings have been removed, IMO, it is no longer original, even though the numbers haven't been replaced.

    Thanks for making the revision so quickly.
    gatorcpa
     
  6. woodwkr2 Mar 23, 2013

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    Revisiting the font for "Longines" I think it is probably more appropriate to divide examples into Serif vs. Non-serifed varieties. I have pulled some images from google image search and other sites, which I will source if available.
    First the Serifed examples:
    Ebay
    Screen Shot 2013-03-23 at 8.22.40 PM.png Screen Shot 2013-03-23 at 8.30.12 PM.png
    (below) Antiquorum
    Screen Shot 2013-03-23 at 8.27.31 PM.png
    (below) Farfo
    Screen Shot 2013-03-23 at 8.22.05 PM.png

    (below) Farfo- apparently same watch from 2 angles
    Screen Shot 2013-03-23 at 8.29.50 PM.png
     
    Screen Shot 2013-03-23 at 8.25.17 PM.png
  7. woodwkr2 Mar 23, 2013

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    Now the Non-Serifed examples (which, in this sample of 3 all have red markings at 12 O'Clock)

    ebay (Lou's link above)
    Screen Shot 2013-03-23 at 10.06.22 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2013-03-23 at 8.23.32 PM.png

    Screen Shot 2013-03-23 at 8.21.56 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2013-03-23 at 8.30.03 PM.png

    By comparison with this small sample size, this last example appears suspect.
     
  8. gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Mar 23, 2013

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    I saw most of those examples when I was looking for a script version. I think the Farfo example is a very old redial. The others all look right to me.

    There seem to have been several different handsets and dial styles on these.

    Hope this helps,
    gatorcpa
     
  9. LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member Mar 23, 2013

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    Agree, the farfo one is redone.

    Also agree - this is a tricky point, because it's a usual ebay piece of seller's "finesse" to claim that a dial is "original," meaning the metal under the repaint is original. But these guys don't go on to add that the "original" dial is repainted, leaving the unsophisticated buyer to assume the whole deal is original. Woodwkr2 has stated quite clearly that it is repainted.

    Emphatically agree - very refreshing to see this done so briskly. Kudos to you, woodwkr.
     
  10. ulackfocus Mar 23, 2013

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    I'll concur on the Farfo watch being a redial. The AQ watch is an original IMO.