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Depollier, FHF and Helvetia (was Movement ID Help)

  1. Helvetia History Mar 22, 2019

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    Hello all,

    As some of you may know I have an interest in Helvetia watches and have a website dedicated to them. I have been doing some research into their early watches and have come across a movement I haven't seen before. I have seen 3 examples in the last couple of weeks, I've bought two for a few pounds each (one still on the way to me).

    First pictures of the movement then a couple of questions:

    s-l1600 (35).jpg s-l1600 (36).jpg H433 (3).jpg H433 (1).jpg

    They are not marked Helvetia anywhere but the shock protection is the pre cal 81 shock protection they used as well as the text on the barrel is the same font etc.

    For comparison here is an earlier (about 1923) watch with a known Helvetia movement:

    1923 H515 (8).jpg 1923 H515 (5).jpg

    And later cal 81 movements (about 1931) with the later shock protection:

    1931B H262 (4).jpg 1931B H472 (2).jpg

    So I am pretty happy they are Helvetia watches, I think probably made for retail by G & M Lane for their "Aeroplane" or "Aero" watches. So maybe this is a pre cal 81 movement from the late 20s/early 30s?

    The spanner in the works however is the watch below, another on it's way to me! It has has the same shock protection and is marked on the dial as Helvetia but I'm pretty sure it's an adapted FHF 1146 movement.

    1934 H604 (3).jpg FHF_1146_10-5.jpg

    So it looks as if Helvetia were adapting FHF movements with their own shock protection before they launched the cal 81 and the movement I am trying to identify does look much more like a smaller FHF, with different bridge configuration, than the later Helvetia movements.

    The problem is I havent been able to find an FHF movement that matches, anyone able to help with an identification?

    Thanks. Carl.
     
  2. bobbee Mar 24, 2019

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    Looks very similar to the 1922 Depollier/Brun system, or the 1930's Lapanouse.
     
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  3. Helvetia History Mar 24, 2019

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    Hello Bobbee. Thanks for the reply. Really interesting. Found this picture of a Depollier:

    DSC04041.JPG

    Need to look further into DepollierBrun shock protection as it seems to be the one General Watch Co/Helvetia were using prior to 1930.

    What is interesting is the General Watch Co registered a patent for a waterproof crown in 1927:

    crown.png
    Looks to be the same one. Perhaps Depollier was working with the General Watch Co/Helvetia in the late 20s.

    Definitely an avenue to explore.
     
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  4. Helvetia History Mar 24, 2019

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    After doing a bit more research I've found another Depollier that matches the second movement above with the Helvetia marked dial.

    Vintage-Swiss-Made-Depollier-Watch-Co-15J-Watch.jpg

    And here's another the same as the first movement I posted, again not marked but serial number and other signs mark it out as a Helvetia.

    1930 H600 (4).jpg

    These movements could just be Depollier movements and have nothing to do with Helvetia, the one Helvetia dial could be due to a swapped movement. But those I have recorded do show other signs of being Helvetia, the barrel text and serial number ranges, where available, match. It also seems Helvetia did have a relationship with Depollier as they used the Depollier/Brun cross shock protection on their early shock protected movements from the late 20s to early 30s it seems before replacing them from 1930 with their own shock protection. I have recorded about 10 Helvetia marked watches using it and about the same again not marked as Helvetia but with Helvetia movements.

    As it seems Depollier is known to have gone to Switzerland to relaunch his company but it's not known exactly what he did perhaps the answer is he worked with Helvetia. It's about this time Helvetia began specialising in sports type watches. It would explain why the Depollier waterproof watch above has a serial number in the 3 millions, odd for a new company just set up. It translates to 1927 if it is a General Watch serial number, have a look here: https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/serial-numbers
     
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  5. bobbee Mar 24, 2019

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    Great finds, and that crown patent for 1927 would help someone else from the NAWCC...

    https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/a-very-unusual-waltham-circa-wwi.151093/

    He's been looking for that patent a while now!

    Liking your thinking re. Depollier working with Helvetia. Not much known about the guy after around mid-late 1920's, even by other enthusiasts.
     
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  6. bobbee Mar 24, 2019

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    A few adverts.



    306952.jpg AdvertBrunPatent_zpsb78824aa.jpg 306953.jpg
     
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  7. Helvetia History Mar 25, 2019

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    Thanks Bobbee.

    I have now also received what I thought was an early Helvetia 81 movement to find that it is a 11.5 Ligne movement and so is not a Cal 81 as I thought but another unidentified movement. I already had one recorded but didn't twig it was a larger movement than the Cal 81 as it's difficult to judge the size in photos. I think this is probably a Helvetia made movement though as the click is much more like their own ones. Possibly a Cal 80 as the 80C from the 40s is 11.5 Ligne and I haven't found any earlier versions which logically there should be as the Cal 81 is from about 1930.

    [​IMG]

    This prompted me to have another look at the pictures I have of early movements and I found one more that is not the Cal 81-26 I thought. It's from a jump hour Helvetia from 1933.

    [​IMG]

    Notice both these early Helvetias, both marked on the dial, use the Depollier shock protection, or a later, simpler version of it. If anyone can help positively identify these movements I would be grateful.

    I've added one more picture to demonstrate where else I have seen this shock protection, it seems to have also been used by Helvetia on their Cal 51S-10 early pilots watches, late 20s/early 30s before they switched to their own.

    [​IMG]

    Interestingly I have only seen this exact version of the Depollier protection on Helvetia watches, and the one Depollier marked waterproof crown one above that I believe could also be made under the General Watch Co umbrella so perhaps this is something he worked on with them.
     
  8. Helvetia History Mar 26, 2019

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    Just one extra thing. I thought the style of lugs on the Gen 4 Depollier above looked familiar so I had a look around and realised where from; Citizenrich's unique Helvetia. Compare below, Depollier and then Helvetia. Another plus for them working together I think. Rich, can you confirm the polished serial number on your watch? Do you think it begins with a 4?

    DSC04032.JPG DSC04041.JPG DSC04053.JPG
    627902-a9acd41886a06dcf374d8707d6879576.jpg 627898-e75ed5eb4081deab8e84202b673238e8.jpg 627900-cbfb2cc3787e4646232a47df97f21a8b.jpg
     
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  9. Helvetia History Mar 26, 2019

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    Well looks like I got to the bottom of the movement mystery, seems to be an FHF 2. I think this is a family of movements of different sizes and both type of movement I have posted above are variants. The particular bridge configuration only seems to be used on these shock protected versions. The Depollier waterproof watch also seems to use a bigger variant of the FHF 2.

    Here is the watch that solved the mystery. Nice to see how my movement would have looked originally. Looks very like an early Helvetia watch as well, I'm getting more and more sure these are all adapted and put together by Helvetia using FHF movements and Depollier shock protection. Interestingly I found this by googling "Depollier Helvetia" and it came up as someone else thought it was a Helvetia watch as well.

    PICT2131.JPG PICT2130.JPG 20151218_203038_6_01_01.jpg PICT2128.JPG
     
    Edited Mar 26, 2019
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  10. bobbee Mar 26, 2019

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    Good find sir!
     
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  11. Helvetia History Mar 31, 2019

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  12. Helvetia History Jun 17, 2019

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    Hello again. For those of you who may be interested in this thread.

    I have just found today the confirmation that the unbranded watches I was trying to tie down, and almost certainly the Depollier waterproof watch, with the adapted FHF movements with the addition of the shock protection and unique bridge config etc were Helvetia watches as I suspected.

    Just waiting for the serial number to confirm a date; 1931 -34 I would say going by the logo etc.

    s-l1600.jpg

    s-l1600 (2).jpg
     
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  13. Helvetia History Aug 20, 2019

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    Hello again, I have just received the advert replicated in part below from the LCH 1949.

    With The General Watch Co/Helvetia advertising this movement as their famous shock proof movement used in their Helvetia waterproof watches by 1929 as well as proving that these watches are by Helvetia as I thought I also think this proves my case for the Depollier also being by Helvetia, albeit using a larger version of the movement. With the movement now being proved to be adapted by General/Helvetia and the crown patented by General/Helvetia and the serial number fitting with General/Helvetia for 1927 I don't think there can be any other conclusion.

    Thanks to those of you who have contributed to this research.

    LCH_1949_p080_Helvetia.jpg
     
    Edited Aug 20, 2019
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  14. DaveK Yoda of Yodelers Aug 20, 2019

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    Love this research and passion. Great work. :thumbsup:
     
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  15. Helvetia History Aug 21, 2019

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    Thanks Dave. I'm quite pleased that I managed to work out that these movements were adapted by Helvetia without that ad at the end. Nice to have it definitely confirmed though.

    Helvetia have a really interesting history. Have a look at the page on 'Large Date' watches on my site where I show that these were first invented by Helvetia despite what is recorded in the reference books. And also the new page on German Military DH watches where, hopefully, I make a convincing case that Helbros (Helvetia Made) German DH watches never went near Germany as Helbros never supplied watches to the German military.

    https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/
     
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  16. DaveK Yoda of Yodelers Aug 22, 2019

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    Great website, you even built a serial # lookup! I like the underdogs, the extinct brands - this is nice work. Keep an eye on things and maybe you can buy the Helvetia name if the current folks don't carry through ;)
     
  17. Helvetia History Aug 23, 2019

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    Thanks Dave. I have had a look at that. They still seem to be trying to sell watches on Chrono24 for silly amounts but their own website doesn't seem to have been updated for a few years.

    Ref the serial numbers, I collected details of a few hundred watches from ebay and sorted them. There were enough with hallmarks, dedications and warranties etc to get an idea of when they were made in relation to their serial number. I then added in some patents so I knew that certain developments had to be after certain dates. Once you have an idea of how many they are making a year you can extrapolate and use the odd watch with dating evidence to check. It became a bit more difficult in the late 50s/60s as production rose rapidly and there are fewer hallmarks etc but I had details of a warranty for 1968 the other day and the serial number was bang on what I though it should be so I think the lookup is right to within a year or so. I don't see why you can't do it for any brand as long as there are enough examples to check. Helvetia was slightly easier as they made their own movements so that meant more dating evidence.
     
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  18. DaveK Yoda of Yodelers Aug 23, 2019

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    Interesting. I am now feeling inspired to do something similar. My first Vintage was a Relide, but I believe they did not make (m)any of their movements. Not much info on them, perhaps I need to be the one to change that

    Thx again :thumbsup:
     
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  19. Helvetia History Nov 26, 2019

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    Some more evidence ref these early shock protected watches has just come my way.

    I’ve spotted this ‘Roirol’ watch with more or less exactly the same dial and movement as the Depollier. The differences are down to the smaller size I believe. The silver case has an Edinburgh hallmark for 1927 and the serial number, which is only 27000 away from the Depollier, would also date this watch to 1927 if the serial number was a General Watch Company one as I believe.

    s-l1600 (6).jpg

    s-l1600 (7).jpg

    The barrel on this movement also bears the ‘3 Adjustments dot star dot’ text in the distinctive font as seen on Helvetia/General Watch Co watches of the 20s/30s.

    The name ‘Roirol’ was registered to the Glasgow wholesale jeweller William Tankel Hyman in 1925.

    I’m absolutely sure all these watches were made by Helvetia/General Watch Co.

    For comparison see this Helvetia dialled watch with the same case as the one above, serial number from 1930 and adapted AS movement. Note the same shock protection and text on the barrel.

    1930 H254 (1).jpg

    1930 H254 (2).jpg

    And this sterile dial. Again the same case and barrel text with Helvetia Cal 81 movement and serial number from 1934. Chromex was a Helvetia trade mark registered in 1929.

    1934 H636 (1).jpg 1934 H636 (2).jpg

    See my blog post here ref these watches if you haven’t seen it before:

    https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/post/helvetia-the-depollier-watch-corp

    Thanks. Carl.
     
  20. Helvetia History Feb 10, 2020

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    Thought I'd update here as I find out more.

    I have just discovered that the Australian watches branded "The Fenchurch Lever" from the 1920s are also versions of these same watches made by Helvetia.

    Here area couple of pics.

    First one, same adapted FHF movement, shock protection, movement text, serial number for 1927/28. Interesting crystal guard, same as in the Wilderness catalogue I posted about but the one in the catalogue has the middle removed, notice how the edges of the hole follow the design. (Notice also that an Australian native has set up home in the movement at some point!).

    1928 3537164 H936 Fenchurch (1).JPG

    Wilderness 1934 26 Guard.jpg

    1928 3537164 H936 Fenchurch (3).JPG

    Next one using a known Helvetia movement, same text, shock protection etc.

    H960 Fenchurch (1).jpg

    H960 Fenchurch (2).jpg

    Thanks. Carl.