"Correct" but not technically "Original"?

High Hope · Jul 29, 2020

I started this question and realized I was derailing someone's thread on his exceptional Seamasters . So, I'll pose the question here.

Is it acceptable practice among the ladies and gentlemen of OF to change worn or missing parts on a vintage watch? The reason I ask is that it seems that often OF members post a Parts Wanted ad looking for, say, a distinctive crown from a certain specific reference, as their crown may be incorrect and they want the exactly correct one for the watch. When they later sell the watch do they identify which parts of their vintage watch are "correct" but technically not "original?" And would that logic apply to say, a, correct bracelet or single inner gear?

My world is vintage cars. Every Pebble Beach Concours entry, which is only open to the world's finest vintage cars, has been restored and rebuilt. Often the car is unique or nearly so. So, parts are fabricated, sourced from parts cars, etc. But they are Blue Ribbon winners at the world's highest level, and they contain many, many "correct but not original" replacement parts. Even in the "Survivors Class," the cars have new brake pads and lines, new tires, etc.

It's probably a philosophical issue more than an ethical issue, and I will never be working on my own watches, vintage or otherwise, but it is of interest to me. Serious question: Does it matter?

JwRosenthal · Jul 29, 2020

High Hope
I started this question and realized I was derailing someone's thread on his exceptional Seamasters . So, I'll pose the question here.

Is it acceptable practice among the ladies and gentlemen of OF to change worn or missing parts on a vintage watch? The reason I ask is that it seems that often OF members post a Parts Wanted ad looking for, say, a distinctive crown from a certain specific reference, as their crown may be incorrect and they want the exactly correct one for the watch. When they later sell the watch do they identify which parts of their vintage watch are "correct" but technically not "original?" And would that logic apply to say, a, correct bracelet or single inner gear?

My world is vintage cars. Every Pebble Beach Concours entry, which is only open to the world's finest vintage cars, have been restored and rebuilt. Often the car is unique or nearly so. So, parts are fabricated, sourced from parts cars, etc. But they are Blue Ribbon winners at the world's highest level, and they contain many, many "correct but not original" replacement parts. Even in the "Survivors Class," the cars have new brake pads and lines, new tires, etc.

It's probably a philosophical issue more than an ethical issue, and I will never be working on my own watches, vintage or otherwise, but it is of interest to me. Serious question: Does it matter?

I think it’s very dependent on the collector- some care, some don’t. But as collectors I feel it’s our obligation to let the buyer make their own decision.
I personally don’t mind service parts, and in fact would rather a watch come with a service crown (and ideally the original in a ziplock), thus I know it’s been serviced properly. Others demand 100% originality and would rather find a “survivor” that hasn’t been serviced or touched-ever.
I bought a replacement case for one of my watches that got nicked up badly, the replacement is 100% an identical case and was in excellent shape- but was not paired to that particular moment/dial from the factory (not even an extract could show that). Another member raised issues with this- and I understand his chagrin. If I ever sell the watch, the original case will accompany the now fresh looking watch, but who’s to know if the that buyer will be as forthcoming when/if they decide to sell it....that is the dilemma.

Faz · Jul 29, 2020

Some American Vintage cars are a great way to compare philosophical approaches to watch collecting. The "matching serial numbers" are a great example. A matching serial number car vs a car that was restored to spec with genuine, period correct parts. Should be physically identical no? For the purist, not so much.

In the end, provenance is key and what is the collector up to in the first place? Wear or the ultimate search and hoard? If ultimately end up with an example of a reference that is exactly how it came out of the manufacture, shouldn't that be satisfying? Or do you absolutely need that fully original, verifiable one owner watch for which every step of its life can be accounted for? Questions, question...

High Hope · Jul 29, 2020

@JwRosenthal , thanks, that is helpful. The irony is that that third buyer will now believe that he has a 100%, and so will the fourth in line on and on. Personally, I don't need original parts and, like you, would much prefer service parts over beaten up originals. In the car world the saying is, Buy the very best car you can afford. Often what is unsaid is, And let others lose their shirts on restorations.

High Hope · Jul 29, 2020

@Faz, thanks. And, you are correct. A vintage 911 I owned was not matching numbers, and at the time it pained me greatly! I've subsequently gotten over that and knowingly bought a near perfect but not numbers matching 356C. Fortunately for me, the next owner, who asked about it, didn't care and bought it anyway.

Porsche offered a Certificate of Authenticity for $60 (later, $100) that spelled out the numbers, options, colors, delivery dates of the car. This became a liability after the cars reached Jerry Seinfeld prices. So, Porsche first had you supply the numbers on your engine and transmission and they would authenticate them on the certificate. Even that became a problem, so Porsche doesn't provide the numbers any longer and simply confirms whether your numbers are in the "correct range."

Me? I no longer worry about that.

Archer · Jul 29, 2020

The fact is, the word "original" is used here and elsewhere related to vintage watches in a way that is not typically correct. In most cases no one knows if the parts are original to the watch, meaning that they were the parts that were on the watch the day it was first sold. Most of the time when people say it's original, the only thing you can really say is that the parts are correct for the period of the watch.

When watches were sent in for service, they often had parts replaced on them such as crowns, hands, and if applicable pushers. So would anyone really be able to tell you that the crown on the watch is the one that originally came on it, or one that was replaced 4 or 5 years later? Not really in most cases.

I'm working on a vintage Speedmaster right now where the original hands are completely trashed - paint is mostly gone, lume is all gone. I have been sent a set of period correct hands that my client has purchased that will go on the watch, consistent in condition with the rest of the watch, and no one would be able to say that they aren't "original" unless they knew about the swap.

This word is typically about as useful as "unpolished" is, in that it can't be proven.

High Hope · Jul 29, 2020

@Archer, thanks. I think it is a personal choice, and also appreciate @JwRosenthal 's comment that "as collectors I feel it’s our obligation to let the buyer make their own decision." Straight up with no BS.

Dgercp · Jul 29, 2020

Some definitions:
Neurotic-insists all parts correct for that model.
Psychotic-all parts original to the watch.
Normal-someone who is not a vintage watch collector.
😀

vintage hab · Jul 29, 2020

High Hope
@Faz, thanks. And, you are correct. A vintage 911 I owned was not matching numbers, and at the time it pained me greatly! I've subsequently gotten over that and knowingly bought a near perfect but not numbers matching 356C. Fortunately for me, the next owner, who asked about it, didn't care and bought it anyway.

You absolutely need to provide a photo of your 356C!

High Hope · Jul 29, 2020

@vintage hab, I really miss that car even though I willingly sold her. I bought her at Monterey Car Week about 4-5 years ago when I was living there. Talk about car heaven, the Week was on overdose, and I'd take a week's vacation to attend the many events. I sold the car last year because I got nervous about the value of the car; I simply had too much money tied up in a very focused kind of car. I immediately experienced Porsche Withdrawal and bought a much lesser quality car, a 911SC Targa. I like it, but in terms of condition she doesn't hold a candle to the 356C. The photos were taken last autumn, after a move to NC.

amcclell · Jul 29, 2020

This is beautiful; my summer ride is extremely ordinary in comparison. I have an NC, or 3rd generation Mazda Miata that I've had since new. I have done all the maintenance myself but after reading this thread, I realize that I should have kept the original air filter, oil filter, engine oil, tires and wiper blades just in case I ever sell it to a fellow watch collector.

JwRosenthal · Jul 29, 2020

High Hope
@vintage habI immediately experienced Porsche Withdrawal and bought a much lesser quality car, a 911SC Targa.

I’m so sorry you have to slum it with an SC, I’m happy to relieve your shame and trade you my 14 year old Audi...it has ass warmers 😉

SkunkPrince · Jul 29, 2020

There is almost nothing mechanical that is 100% original if is of any age. Things wear out and get replaced, and that was the intent.

If you want to be the kind of collector who wants to worship an object that does not function, that is your choice. You can wrap it up nice, stick it in a bank vault, and pull it out every few years. That is a choice that is perfectly valid and many share it.

I, personally, am not a collector nor do I want to be a collector. I am an enthusiast, and I like wearing neat Omega watches. To wear them they have to meet certain standards. If they are water resistant, for the most part water resistance standards need to be met. The watch has to keep time as well as it is capable. If that's one minute per day, so be it. But nearly every watch I own can do significantly better than that. Has to be reasonably comfortable, and believe it or not, when I have a fibromyalgia attack, a watch that is too tight or too heavy is painful indeed.

And, it has to be reasonably attractive. No excessive dial "patina" (ahem). Not scratched to hell and back. Not have its structure polished away.

I like to think there is room for me in this tent as well.

vintage hab · Jul 29, 2020

High Hope
@vintage hab, I really miss that car even though I willingly sold her. I bought her at Monterey Car Week about 4-5 years ago when I was living there. Talk about car heaven, the Week was on overdose, and I'd take a week's vacation to attend the many events. I sold the car last year because I got nervous about the value of the car; I simply had too much money tied up in a very focused kind of car. I immediately experienced Porsche Withdrawal and bought a much lesser quality car, a 911SC Targa. I like it, but in terms of condition she doesn't hold a candle to the 356C. The photos were taken last autumn, after a move to NC.

I would call dibs but sounds like it’s already gone 🙁. I would have happily traded you my cayman...

NGO1 · Jul 29, 2020

High Hope
@vintage hab

You just made my Wednesday. God those curves are gorgeous.

Dan S · Jul 29, 2020

I'm not going to comment on what is "acceptable", since that is a matter of personal taste. But, IMO, the best sellers are 100% transparent about what restoration has been done to a watch, to their knowledge, especially external parts, and even highly visible and distinctive parts of a movement (rotor, signed bridges, etc.). That includes parts that have been installed by that seller themself, and also parts that the seller may know are not original based on their general knowledge and expertise. You will sometimes see sales listings on this forum, from the best sellers, that say something like "when I purchased the watch, it had a service crown, and I had a period-correct crown installed." This gives me tremendous confidence in the seller.

That said, this practice usually does not extend to utilitarian parts of the movement, like gears, wheels, jumpers, screws, etc. Those are generally considered standard repairs.

OmegaP99 · Jul 29, 2020

@High Hope You had me at Pebble Beach. I own a survivor-class w111 coupe and it has the original spare, and as you know in a concours event, having even the original tires can be an advantage. For daily driving, not so much. So your comparison is a good one, usability vs originality is often a consideration too with cars and watches. In the case of my car, where I'm the second owner, I have had the option to upgrade from the Girling brakes to the later versions that are larger and have better stopping power, but I opted to search the country for a set of these smaller, yet correct pads instead of taking the easier, cheaper, and arguably "better" option. I only ever use Classic Center parts, never cheap eBay rubber seals, etc. This philosophy carries to my watches. I would only ever use factory parts, and yes, if I knew what parts of one of my watches were service parts (factory replacements that are correct, but different from the original parts, like an updated part number for cars) I would certainly disclose that in any for sale listing. When I see notices about replaced parts it gives me more confidence in a watch or it's seller, not less because it has been changed. I think the most fair and reasonable thing to do, with cars and watches, is to disclose as much as you know and let the right buyer find your item. It's much better than giving a slick sales pitch only to have the buyer disappointed and then having to deal with the consequences.

You will find a similar camaraderie among watch enthusiasts as that among gear heads, but just like the vintage car world, there are plenty of shysters waiting to take your money.

Also, I realize @amcclell is kidding, but I do keep the take-off parts from my car in a box just because the next owner might wish to restore and put an original part back on rather than a replacement, even if it came from Mercedes-Benz themselves.

JwRosenthal · Jul 29, 2020

OmegaP99
@High Hope ...but I do keep the take-off parts from my car in a box just because the next owner might wish to restore and put an original part back on rather than a replacement, even if it came from Mercedes-Benz themselves.

When I sold my BMW e9 (still hurts), I told the buyer to make sure that whomever drove him over needed to bring a large car/SUV/van. He realized what I meant when he came to get it, and we loaded that car with all the factory parts (including 5 factory alloys with 80’s Michelin’s on them) that had been swapped for upgrades or (reversible) mods. I currently have a drawer filled with replaced parts from my watches- well marked and baggied. It’s just part of the idea of stewardship I guess- we aren’t the owners, just current caretakers...we need to pass them along with all their parts to the next steward.

High Hope · Jul 29, 2020

Wow, thanks for the thoughtful and positive comments, I appreciate them. @amcclell , Mazda Miatas are great cars.I take the view that any car somebody takes pride in owning and maintaining is better than seeing a car scrapped. Yes, that even extends to Rat Rods. I like to see a ratted out Ford panel van that is being used and enjoyed rather than knowing one was junked and crushed.

High Hope · Jul 29, 2020

@JwRosenthal , not slumming! If the car were in the same shape as the 356 I'd like it almost as much. 😀
@ngo516 , thanks for the compliments. There was not a single straight line on the car, except the cylinder bores I suppose.
@OmegaP99 , that sounds like a nice, nice car. These shots are for you:

Dated spare wheel:

As per the Certificate of Authenticity, here is the original Dunlop B7 spare:

"Correct" but not technically "Original"?

High Hope

JwRosenthal

Faz

High Hope

High Hope

Archer

High Hope

Dgercp

vintage hab

High Hope

amcclell

JwRosenthal

SkunkPrince

vintage hab

NGO1

Dan S

OmegaP99

JwRosenthal

High Hope

High Hope

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