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  1. Superpacker May 1, 2013

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    As I am exploring Longines, it appears that the most abundant of the vintage dress watch category are the Conquest the Admiral. Both seem sleek and beautiful. Can someone break down the main differences to be aware of? Also, maybe ad where the Flagship and Grand prize fit into the hierarchy? Thanks!
     
  2. ulackfocus May 1, 2013

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    For reference on any of the in-house automatic calibers mentioned, simply click HERE and scroll down to find out details.

    When they were introduced in the 50's, the Conquest and Flagship were Longines' top of the line models. The All Guard, which was introduced in 1952, was the forerunner to the Conquest and even used the same cases & calibers. The Conquest, introduced around 1954, was an automatic employing some version of the in-house 19A series. Very late 1958 and 1959 saw a switch to the new caliber 290 series, but Longines used the old All Guard style Conquest cases, dials, and crowns for a short time before switching to a new style in late 1959. The 29x offered a better winding system and a version with a novel date position at 12. LouS has an example of the 1959 version using the old style case, and I have a 1960 version of the new style case/dial/crown model. This iteration ran into the mid 60's but as the popularity of the Conquest grew, there were lesser examples offered in different case/dial combinations. (Sort of like Omega did with the Genève). By the early to mid 60's, The Flagship automatic had mostly replaced the Conquest as the watch to own - but more on that in the next paragraph. The late 60's and early 70's saw many different styles of watches which were all over the map in value carry the Conquest name - even some less expensive dive and sport watches.

    The Flagship was Longines' in-house manual wind utilizing the 30L (subdial seconds) or 30LS (sweep center seconds) and were based on the chronometer caliber 30Z used in competitions. The line was introduced near 1957, and was offered in either stainless or solid gold only at first. When Longines stopped making the 291 with the date at 12, the Flagship automatic was born with the date at 12 the next year (1961). These references had the new in-house 340 series inside, including one model offering a caliber 341 with the date at 12. Now Longines offered both manual and automatic Flagship options. Just as the name Conquest was bastardized to cash in on it's popularity, so was the Flagship in both automatic and manual wind in the early to mid 60's. Instead of only carrying their top end movements, some automatics first had the 380 (a rebadged Cyma 480) and some manuals used the 490 (based on a Marvin 700 / Election caliber). By the time the 70's arrived, all bets were off on the quality of a watch with the Flagship name on it - just like it was with the Conquest. We can go into how the onslaught of quartz watches caused this, but that's another subject.

    The Admiral and Grand Prize came to market about the same time - near 1960. The Admiral was probably first. The Grand Prize was named for the 340/350 series calibers, a series of movements made by Longines to celebrate all the first prizes they had taken in competitions over the years. It's unfortunate they aren't pulling in the same money as the other two names because they were equal in quality due to using only the 34x in-house calibers. The Admirals also used the 34x/35x movements, but not always. They also carried the 50x series, based on Record 195x calibers. Longines acquired Record in 1961 so technically they are in-house, but not in the strictest sense so these versions are not as sought after and significantly less valued. Again, nice movements but nothing that makes a Longines collector go gaga and shell out big bucks.

    In conclusion, an in-house caliber watch will be valued $200 to $500 more than a rebadged caliber given that all other conditions are equal.

    That's the basics. There are other details that can be discussed on a watch by watch basis, like what medallion was on the caseback of which case reference, what hands went on which models, etc.

    Did that cover your question sufficiently?
     
  3. ulackfocus May 1, 2013

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    Oh, forgot some pictures! :oops:

    Here's the lone Conquest, a caliber 291, in my collection:

    [​IMG]


    I wouldn't trade it for all the Admirals currently in my box:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    And my Flagship caliber 341:

    [​IMG]


    Here's a Flagship caliber 380 that's now owned by another forum member:

    [​IMG]


    Excellent casebacks on these early 18ct versions:

    [​IMG]


    And the one Conquest I'm missing - the Power Reserve caliber 294:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Superpacker May 2, 2013

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    Dennis, This was such an amazing response! Very helpful. I initially came here for info re Omega, but you have got me thinking hard about a Longines! I loved the examples from your collection, especially the First Admiral image (image 3) and the Flagship with the 12 o'clock date window. That case back is beautiful too! You say those were only on the 18ct flagships? Is there a model you would recommend that give great bang for your buck when looking at a dress watch under $1K
     
  5. ulackfocus May 2, 2013

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    You can still get the non-Flagship caliber 30L and 30LS models for well under $1000 in stainless. Picked up a nearly NOS piece from a forum member recently. Helped him vet it, but he wasn't happy with the size once he got it.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I doubt you'd find an 18ct gold Longines Flagship under $1000 no matter what the condition, but there are some Admirals and Grand Prizes floating around in 14ct that can be had between $800 and $1000.

    And yes, only the 18ct Swiss Made cases had the raised relief 3 mast argo on the back - not all of them though.
     
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  6. Alpenschneerot May 2, 2013

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    Hi Dennis,
    thanks for these wonderful pics.
    Let me tell you a little story about the 18 K Conquest ,cal.291 (first pic), that I owned several years ago. Just this model.
    I was at a presentation of Jaeger Le Coultre in Bochum ,Germany in the late nineties.
    At my table there was a couple. We talked about watches and Oldtimers and suddenly the man said to me: What`s that for a lovely watch on your wrist?. I proudly said: Oh, that`s a vintage Longines Conquest in 18 Karats. He said: Tell me the price of this one,it you want to sell it.
    I said: I purchased it for about 2000 DM at an auction. He answered: If you want to sell the watch, I invite you and your wife for dinner, give you the money and then you
    will hand over the watch!
    Two weeks later we made the deal.
    The mony I invested in another watch, I believe it was a Rolex!
    Shame on me...
    Reiner
     
  7. Superpacker May 2, 2013

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    Great story though!
     
  8. ulackfocus May 2, 2013

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    Reiner, you should know that 18ct date-at-12 specimens, complete with the original scalloped crown, are now selling over $2000 - and upwards of $2500 for the near mint ones. I don't know what 2000 DM converts to, but I'll bet it wasn't quite as much! Dinner was good I hope.

    I wouldn't be too concerned though. Recently Rolex prices have been climbing faster than many brands.
     
  9. Alpenschneerot May 2, 2013

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    Hi Dennis,
    thanks for your reply.
    My watchmaker wants to sell a 18 Karat rose gold Conquest 19ASD in really mint condition for exact 2000 Euros.
    I want to give back the Teheran Zenith and take the Longines!
    Reiner
     
  10. ulackfocus May 2, 2013

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    I'd like to see that 19ASD. If you aren't purchasing it, I might want to since that's a caliber I'm missing. Owned one or two over the years but I'm looking for the perfect specimen.
     
  11. Alpenschneerot May 2, 2013

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    Hi Dennis,
    Saturday I make a Photo of this watch!
    Reiner
     
  12. Superpacker May 2, 2013

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    For some reason, and it could be just me, but the 5 stars on some Admiral models make me a bit uneasy. I know it sounds weird, but its like wearing regimental colors or tartans from group as you have no association with, which is no big deal to many, I know. The name Admiral, while really cool, is tough enough to get past, but the 5 stars can put it over the top. Again, likely just me, but that might narrow my scope to flagships and conquests.
     
  13. ulackfocus May 2, 2013

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    What's really funny is that Conquests only had 3 stars (when any were displayed at all) but they were superior watches. Don't try to figure out marketing from ANY decade.
     
  14. LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member May 2, 2013

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    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]
     
  15. LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member May 2, 2013

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    And an original black dial cal 19ASD Conquest for good measure

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Superpacker May 2, 2013

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    Dave, that is an interesting and humorous point. Lou, really like that white dial Conquest! I also just learned that Longines had a nice relationship with Admiral Byrd (possible the namesake for the model?), which makes me even more compelled as I have an awesome photo of Admiral Byrd w/ my great grandfather.
     
  17. LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member May 2, 2013

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    Sorry, who's this Dave fellow? Shirley you mean Dennis.
     
  18. cicindela Steve @ ΩF Staff Member May 2, 2013

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    Dennis, humorous??::confused2::
     
  19. ulackfocus May 2, 2013

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    Yes, Dennis has a humorous - and a tibia, plus 204 other bones.

    ..... and don't call me Shirley.

    (how often do you get 2 straight lines thrown at you in succession? :p)
     
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  20. Superpacker May 3, 2013

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    Terribly sorry. I knew it was Dennis. Yet, for some reason . . .