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  1. rotationslim

    rotationslim Jan 12, 2018

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    I've noticed that the concentric circle details on subdials seems to vary considerably on Speedmasters. Some have very pronounced circles (IMO a nice detail) while on others the circles are not--or barely--discernable. Do all subdials have concentric circles? (I read on another forum that this may simply be a part of the dial milling process.) Robert-Jan Broer mentions this here: http://speedmaster101.com/blog/concentric-circles-on-subdials/ but I haven't found a thread in this forum on this topic. Will someone please educate me on what concentric ring details are correct for each reference?
     
  2. M'Bob

    M'Bob Jan 12, 2018

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    What, in particular, do you find lacking in the Speedmaster 101 coverage of this topic?
     
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  3. time flies

    time flies Jan 12, 2018

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  4. Foo2rama

    Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Jan 12, 2018

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    Well no ones ever gone that deep to measure the circles on each reference. Frankly there is no reason. Dials where done in batches and which batches aka dial variations are well known and easily identifiable through other markings.

    If circle variations existed within the known variations no one would care. It’s too minor, even the 220 bezel misprint carries little to no price bump.
     
    Edited Jan 12, 2018
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  5. rotationslim

    rotationslim Jan 13, 2018

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    M’Bob, the Speedmaster 101 coverage suggests “I do not have access to enough raw data so I can only present observations here and hope the wider community can contribute knowledge, perhaps via www.omegaforums.net,” but it appears that we haven’t. Perhaps I’ve missed a thread?

    Foo2rama, my intent was to examine sundials to determine whether or not a dial is a fake or incorrect for a reference. Are you saying that it’s worthless to examine the concentric ring detail on subdials to determine whether or not the dial is correct?
     
  6. Foo2rama

    Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Jan 13, 2018

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    It’s worthless to examine those to determine if it is fake or correct for a model. There are many other things on the dial that can be examined.

    The different dial variations have been throughly cataloged and attached to references. It’s quite easy to determine correctness of a dial if you know the watch reference.

    The wonderful reference book Moon Watch Only is the benchmark. They also have online and mobile resources to assist.

    http://www.moonwatchonly.com/
     
    Edited Jan 13, 2018
  7. M'Bob

    M'Bob Jan 13, 2018

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    I don't believe you have missed anything. To the best of my knowledge, it just hasn't been examined to the degree of nuance you seem to be seeking. One thing you can be sure of, going forward: if it were covered, Speedmaster 101 would have updated the site to reflect that new information.
     
  8. oddboy

    oddboy Zero to Grail+2998 In Six Months Jan 13, 2018

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    One correction, Mr. Broer is not the author of speedmaster101, though still a major contributor to the speedy community.
     
  9. Foo2rama

    Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Jan 13, 2018

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    Aye, if that was directed at me. Speedmaster101 describes the correct features for the dials of each reference, while MWO has classified each dial variation into a handy letter/number name. Then says which dial variations go with each reference. Same data between MWO and 101 just organized a bit differently.

    I know you @oddboy know this but I’m saying for the OP.

    As for this really being an issue... there are not fake dials floating around in appreciable numbers if at all. We do see a small number of redials which are very easily spotted, and large numbers of later or service dials places on earlier watches, which is also easy to spot if you know where to look.

    The only time the community really runs into issues is service dials from the 70’s and on for the 321 watches. Not all service dials have been described and a new variant seems to pop up every year or so never to be spotted again.

    My theory on these service dials is that they where ordered in low volume after 321 production ended on an as needed basis hence the Speedmaster font, AML, and long/short indices combos that seem to randomly pop up for 321 service dials.
     
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  10. oddboy

    oddboy Zero to Grail+2998 In Six Months Jan 13, 2018

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  11. FreelanceWriter

    FreelanceWriter Jan 14, 2018

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    I recently learned from that Omega Holy Grail website that the Grail was issued with concentric-circle dials but the service dials were smooth. I'd imagine that's also the case with some other Omegas.
     
  12. Foo2rama

    Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Jan 14, 2018

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    Oh really? Could have sworn that was debunked.
     
  13. FreelanceWriter

    FreelanceWriter Jan 14, 2018

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    If you're referring to the Grail, the photos of both variants are right on the OHG website; and I can also tell you that the original dial on mine has concentric circles but the new service dial I recently procured does not. If you're referring to what I said about other Omegas, you can't "debunk" pure speculation that someone expressly qualifies as being nothing more than what he imagines to be the case. You could simply say that what he imagines isn't actually true.
     
  14. rotationslim

    rotationslim Jan 14, 2018

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    You all are fonts (or “founts” depending on your preference) of knowledge, and I appreciate you taking the time to further educate me. Given all the minute detail with which various references are scrutinized, I’m surprised that concentric ring detail gets so little attention as it adds such a nice aesthetic flourish. That said, I now recognize that the other multiple documented ways to assess a particular reference’s authenticity are preferable (and likely easier) to utilize. Thus, I’ll no longer worry about this detail in assessing a dial’s correctness. Helpful. I also find it useful to learn that there aren’t many—or any—fake Speedmaster dials out there, so this is also useful info. I’m a bit surprised that some enterprising counterfeiters haven’t done so given the meteoric rise in values. Certainly we see them in other watches. But that’s another thread...
     
  15. FreelanceWriter

    FreelanceWriter Jan 14, 2018

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    Actually, that OHG site shows a counterfeit Grail dial, as well. I have no idea how common that is in other Omegas and was surprised to learn there are any fake Grail dials, considering how few of those watches were produced in the first place and that, I imagine, the only demand for fake dials would be for the relatively small subset of that already-small number of examples that happen to have already had a Mark IV.5 service dial installed by Omega.
     
  16. STANDY

    STANDY schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collector Jan 14, 2018

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    Concentric circles ::confused2:: you must have good eyes, I am battling to see the sub-dials the older I get.
     
  17. TsoloT

    TsoloT Jan 14, 2018

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    Firstly Concentric circles only occur on original dials on the Holy Grail

    The service dials do not have concentric circles on them...not sure what debunked has to do with this it’s just a matter of fact

    And it requires a loupe to see them

    And there are fake dials out there no question I have seen numbers of them and they are posted on the site

    Any further questions on the OHG can be directed to the author at ss@omegaholygrail.com and I am sure he will answer

    As I am the author
     
  18. TsoloT

    TsoloT Jan 14, 2018

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    An OHG Dial in good condition goes for close to £1800-2000 so it’s worth faking them and easy to do as the basic template for a lemania 5100 is easy to find
     
  19. Foo2rama

    Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Jan 14, 2018

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    I was under the impression that the non ringed where for another model or faked. Someone awhile back claimed to have non ringed ones and under examination they clearly had rings.
     
  20. TsoloT

    TsoloT Jan 14, 2018

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    I remember the thread. ...it requires a loupe for confirmation as the Matt Dial makes the circles difficult to pick out