Comparing apples (watches) and pears (hi-fi)

Engee · Nov 8, 2021

Like a number of people here, I'm interested in both watches and h-fi, and prices range in a similar pattern. You can buy junk watches and junk hifi for a few bucks / quid, and you can go into the stratosphere for both as well, but I think most would agree that the price range for "good" is roughly similar. Something like £/$/€500 to 5k.

Both are technical products, but what do you think represents better value as an item of technology - a watch or a turntable?

I know this is largely unanswerable, but it just got me thinking and I thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion. If I spend £2,500 will I get a better watch for my money than a turntable? Perhaps another way of putting it is, "Is a £2,500 watch a technically more superior item than a £2,500 turntable?"

gatorcpa · Nov 8, 2021

Can you buy a gold turntable for £2,500? No.

Can you buy a gold vintage watch for £2,500? Quite possibly, depending on the brand. You might not get a Patek Philippe or Audemars Piguet, but you should be able to go to the next level (Jaeger-LeCoultre, Omega, etc.) at that price.

The gold in the watch will always have some intrinsic value and the watch works independently of any other technology. The turntable is pretty much useless without significant investments in other components (tonearm, cartridge, pre-amp, amp, and speakers) to make the system work.

I know what I would choose.
gatorcpa

BlackTalon · Nov 8, 2021

What is 'better'? A $50 quartz watch will mop the floor with a $1,000 or $10,000 mechanical watch with respect to timekeeping accuracy, maintenance costs, etc. What you are paying for is better materials (hopefully), better finishing (hopefully), bragging rights, or the enjoyment of having a complex mechanical device that does an exceptional job keeping time -- all things considered (yet not as good as a quartz).

Audio is similar. There are DACs for less than $100 that will mop the floor with $15,000 DACs. And new Hypex and Purifi Class D modules that put out substantial, reliable power with much less heat generation than Class A/B amps, and especially Class A amps. And without the euphonic colorations of tube amps. And lots of new speakers coming on the market that have built in amplification and digital sound processing/ equalization. Basically a source (streaming), a DAC and the powered speakers and you can have a helluva accurate sound system for far less than $10k. And if you like the euphonic sound, you can dial it in with some of the firmware that is getting included in newer DAC chips (add some 2nd order distortion, etc.). Sadly these systems are not eye-catching because there are no massive amps on stands next to the speakers, a warm glow of tubes, etc. and they give you little standing in the audiophile community. But holy $hit, these systems can sound fantastic.

While quartz watches don't do much for me, after 40 years I am steering away from traditional 'high-end' audio and delving into the world of Class D, streaming, etc. And I am extremely happy with the results, as well as the lower costs. All that being said, we still have a couple turntables, a tube preamp, a Bryston amp, etc. They just don't get used nearly as much anymore. Hmm, looking at my TinTin, it took me 6 minutes and 47 seconds (+/- 1 second) to write this 😁

SkunkPrince · Nov 8, 2021

If I didn't already have separate Parasound components and an upgraded Stax DAC-Talent, I would be buying this:

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAHAHINT6
https://parasound.com/hint6.php

madjestikmoose · Nov 8, 2021

Engee
Both are technical products, but what do you think represents better value as an item of technology - a watch or a turntable?

Value means different things to different people, doesn’t it. I have a friend who’s just shelled out ££££ on a Naim Uniti Atom and raves about my Artera Solus, but he has zero interest in watches and is forever mocking my “Go-Faster Omega Rolex James Bond Speedmaster.”

I guess it’s trickier to accumulate/collect hifi unless you live in a castle. In my experience hifi enthusiasts tend to adopt a one-in-one-out policy as they upgrade components. Watch collectors obviously have more space to play with. And if you did have £2.5k to spend you’d choose whatever you want the most, be it a turntable or a Go Faster James Bond Omega Rolex Speedmaster.

😀

Tony C. · Nov 8, 2021

Interesting coincidence, as I have been spending much more money on stereo upgrades recently than watches.

As mentioned above, few audiophiles actually collect gear, so the two pursuits are somewhat apples and oranges. At the same time, though, there are plenty of watch collectors and audiophiles who make many changes over very long periods of time, enjoying the process throughout, and not necessarily seeking a defined end-point.

I could have purchased a very nice vintage watch for what I paid for my new amplifier, but as much as I have a passion for watch collecting, the truth is that the amp will ultimately provide far, far more pleasure, and over a much longer period of the time.

Engee · Nov 8, 2021

madjestikmoose
Value means different things to different people, doesn’t it. I have a friend who’s just shelled out ££££ on a Naim Uniti Atom and raves about my Artera Solus, but he has zero interest in watches and is forever mocking my “Go-Faster Omega Rolex James Bond Speedmaster.”

I guess it’s trickier to accumulate/collect hifi unless you live in a castle. In my experience hifi enthusiasts tend to adopt a one-in-one-out policy as they upgrade components. Watch collectors obviously have more space to play with. And if you did have £2.5k to spend you’d choose whatever you want the most, be it a turntable or a Go Faster James Bond Omega Rolex Speedmaster.

😀

Yes to all of this. I didn’t explain myself very well. Value is always in the eye of the beholder, but my enquiry is about technical excellence. Years of knowledge, innovation and manufacturing excellence go into both a watch and an amp, but what has more? It’s easy to say that a space rocket has more technology i it than an e-bike,but they cost different amounts. But a watch and a piece of kit that costs the same, which of those us the more sophisticated piece of kit?

Tony C. · Nov 8, 2021

Engee
But a watch and a piece of kit that costs the same, which of those us the more sophisticated piece of kit?

Well, there is greater variance in the technical approaches to amplifier design, as the basics of mechanical timekeeping are pretty much settled. A company can add complications, of course, and the aesthetic aspects of watch design do provide room for creativity, but you won't likely find very different topologies, as one does in amplifier design. And there are interesting, high-quality amps being designed today that perform differently (some would argue better) than those which came before them.

Adding to the complication of amplifier design, in order for a product to be successful, it will have to perform well with a reasonable variety of speakers, most of which are sure to have different characteristics. So an audio component cannot simply measure well, it must also become a part of various system synergies that will please at least a certain percentage of audiophiles.

madjestikmoose · Nov 8, 2021

Engee
Yes to all of this. I didn’t explain myself very well. Value is always in the eye of the beholder, but my enquiry is about technical excellence. Years of knowledge, innovation and manufacturing excellence go into both a watch and an amp, but what has more? It’s easy to say that a space rocket has more technology i it than an e-bike,but they cost different amounts. But a watch and a piece of kit that costs the same, which of those us the more sophisticated piece of kit?

Oh, m8! How long is a piece of string? 😉

This reminds me of a discussion I had with someone many many moons ago about who was the “better” athlete - Lance Armstrong (pre-Oprah), or Steve Redgrave… comparing such similar yet different disciplines was like chalk and cheese! We got nowhere!

Tony C. · Nov 8, 2021

madjestikmoose
comparing such similar yet different disciplines was like chalk and cheese!

That strikes me as much less of a problem than the fact that one used potent PEDs, while the other presumably didn't!

Archer · Nov 8, 2021

Tony C.
Well, there is greater variance in the technical approaches to amplifier design, as the basics of mechanical timekeeping are pretty much settled. A company can add complications, of course, and the aesthetic aspects of watch design do provide room for creativity, but you won't likely find very different topologies, as one does in amplifier design. And there are interesting, high-quality amps being designed today that perform differently (some would argue better) than those which came before them.

Adding to the complication of amplifier design, in order for a product to be successful, it will have to perform well with a reasonable variety of speakers, most of which are sure to have different characteristics. So an audio component cannot simply measure well, it must also become a part of various system synergies that will please at least a certain percentage of audiophiles.

Not so sure that watch (movement) design is as settled as your reply would indicate. Just like amplifiers will have commonality in various ways, watch movements will have them as well, but how to make a mechanical watch movement is far from settled I think.

Some of the recent experimentation from Vincent Calabrese (Calasys) for example is quite interesting - elimination of the spiral balance spring entirely.

Archer · Nov 8, 2021

BlackTalon
While quartz watches don't do much for me, after 40 years I am steering away from traditional 'high-end' audio and delving into the world of Class D, streaming, etc. And I am extremely happy with the results, as well as the lower costs. All that being said, we still have a couple turntables, a tube preamp, a Bryston amp, etc. They just don't get used nearly as much anymore. Hmm, looking at my TinTin, it took me 6 minutes and 47 seconds (+/- 1 second) to write this 😁

These things can be "high end" as well, depending on your definition of what that means.

madjestikmoose · Nov 8, 2021

Tony C.
That strikes me as much less of a problem than the fact that one used potent PEDs, while the other presumably didn't!

Like I said, this was pre-Oprah, around the time he “won” Tour number six or seven.

My point at the time was, you could take a 16st oarsman and stick him on a bike but he’d never win a Grand Tour. Similarly, you could take a 10st pro cyclist and stick him on an ergometer, but he’d never pull sub-six minute 2k.

Tony C. · Nov 8, 2021

Archer
Not so sure that watch (movement) design is as settled as your reply would indicate.

I appreciate your point, and accept that technically there have been some recent innovations. But I rather doubt that there are many, if any buyers of contemporary watches who truly care about relatively minuscule advances in accuracy. They are buying for reasons of fashion, bragging rights, or both.

Audiophiles, in contrast, typically buy components in hopes of receiving tangible benefits that make meaningful differences in their listening experiences. And while fashion certainly plays a role in the audio world, and some of the differences in sound from component to component can be quite small, various approaches to amplifier and speaker design can have big impacts on sound quality.

So from a consumer standpoint, there seems to be a significant gap in the practical impacts of the advances being made in the two (broad) areas of design.

BlackTalon · Nov 8, 2021

Archer
These things can be "high end" as well, depending on your definition of what that means.

I agree 100%, but there are many hardcore audiophiles who have no interest in believing. The Purify Eval 1 amp I picked up a few months ago gives up nothing to my Bryston amp, and best it in many aspects. My 'he-man' rig is no better than the system I put together this past year for my son, or the one I put together a month ago for my wife. And both of their systems cost less than 35% of what mine cost. I even assembled the speaker cables for my wife's system (Speakon connectors fastened to Canare cable), and they cede nothing to the 'name brand' audiophile speaker cables I bought years ago. But maybe I have the audiophile cables installed in the wrong direction... 🙄😁

Honestly, this new equipment has made audio fun and interesting to me again.

Archer · Nov 8, 2021

Tony C.
I appreciate your point, and accept that technically there have been some recent innovations. But I rather doubt that there are many, if any buyers of contemporary watches who truly care about relatively minuscule advances in accuracy. They are buying for reasons of fashion, bragging rights, or both.

Audiophiles, in contrast, typically buy components in hopes of receiving tangible benefits that make meaningful differences in their listening experiences. And while fashion certainly plays a role in the audio world, and some of the differences in sound from component to component can be quite small, various approaches to amplifier and speaker design can have big impacts on sound quality.

So from a consumer standpoint, there seems to be a significant gap in the practical impacts of the advances being made in the two (broad) areas of design.

Being an audiophile I understand the difference in how the approach is from one to another.

Part of the “bragging rights” of contemporary watch buyers includes accuracy, and the technical innovations themselves. This is not that sort of forum, so the concept here is not prevalent, but it’s out there for certain.

Archer · Nov 8, 2021

BlackTalon
I agree 100%, but there are many hardcore audiophiles who have no interest in believing. The Purify Eval 1 amp I picked up a few months ago gives up nothing to my Bryston amp, and best it in many aspects. My 'he-man' rig is no better than the system I put together this past year for my son, or the one I put together a month ago for my wife. And both of their systems cost less than 35% of what mine cost. I even assembled the speaker cables for my wife's system (Speakon connectors fastened to Canare cable), and they cede nothing to the 'name brand' audiophile speaker cables I bought years ago. But maybe I have the audiophile cables installed in the wrong direction... 🙄😁

Honestly, this new equipment has made audio fun and interesting to me again.

There are always going to be the people who want nothing but vinyl with tube amps. But the top end of streamers is well over $30k and class D amps are not far behind. Like anything there will be people who adopt early, and some never at all.

SkunkPrince · Nov 8, 2021

Tony C.
Audiophiles, in contrast, typically buy components in hopes of receiving tangible benefits that make meaningful differences in their listening experiences.

Some do. Alas too many believe that a $300 power cord makes a difference, or that this brand of capacitor is so very much better than some other. Or that the color of a tube's plates means anything significant.

These people hear with their eyes and not their ears and when they do hear with their ears, they invent things that aren't there and make up explanations that are complete nonsense to explain them.

Fortunately, you don't have owners of mechanical watches making up nonsense all that often.

Tony C. · Nov 8, 2021

SkunkPrince
Some do. Alas too many believe that a $300 power cord makes a difference, or that this brand of capacitor is so very much better than some other. Or that the color of a tube's plates means anything significant.

These people hear with their eyes and not their ears and when they do hear with their ears, they invent things that aren't there and make up explanations that are complete nonsense to explain them.

That's overly simplistic. There is often truth in between the views of the objectivists and subjectivists. Components that measure the best don't necessarily sound the best. A very large number of audiophiles prefer the sound produced by tube amplifiers, in spite (or because) of the distortion that they typically add to the sound. Etc.

With regard to cables, we certainly don't want to go off on that contentious tangent here. But I will point out that $300 for a power cord is considered to be relatively cheap by many audiophiles these days! 😁

sxl2004 · Nov 8, 2021

Some how I am stuck in the 50’s and 60’s for both hobbies 😀
Of course with noteable exceptions 😁

Comparing apples (watches) and pears (hi-fi)

Engee

gatorcpa

BlackTalon

SkunkPrince

madjestikmoose

Tony C.

Engee

Tony C.

madjestikmoose

Tony C.

Archer

Archer

madjestikmoose

Tony C.

BlackTalon

Archer

Archer

SkunkPrince

Tony C.

sxl2004

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