Chrono24 - sold watch, money sent through escrow account but never arrived

orlis · Nov 12, 2019

Hi,

I think it is time I need to reach to wider community and ask for your help and advice.

I sold a watch (Tudor GMT) on Chrono24 on Oct 9th and still did not receive the money although I used their escrow system. It is already 1 month since the watch was successfully delivered to the buyer and i don't believe waiting any longer will miraculously make the money to appear on my account. Therefore I hope i can get some advice from more experienced members here what else I can do to get my money back before seeking for legal advice.

Some facts and timeline of what happened:

Oct 9th - watch sold
Oct 10th - I realized that Chrono24 have my old account number on file and reached their customer service to change the account details (from European to US bank account) - was confirmed same day that the payout will be transferred to my new bank account
Oct 11th - watch delivered and payout authorized
Oct 12th - payout process started
Oct 22nd - payout process completed

Since then, I'm awaiting to receive the money and was contacting the Chrono24 and my bank several times. I got reference number of the SWIFT transaction from Chrono but my bank (HSBC USA) claims they cannot trace it as the wire was in EUR so it does not have FRN (Federal Reference Number). The fact is i successfully delivered the watch, successfully update my account details and never received the money. It's already 1 month and I'm becoming not only frustrated (definitely not going to use Chrono24 ever again) but also have no idea what should be next step.

Please share any ideas or suggestions.

wristpirate · Nov 12, 2019

Are you sure they haven't sent the money to your old account? If sending to your US account I would assume they sent it in USD not EUR

orlis · Nov 12, 2019

wristpirate
Are you sure they haven't sent the money to your old account? If sending to your US account I would assume they sent it in USD not EUR

I got a confirmation they send it to US account. They send the wire in EUR. This is what is stated on the wire confirmation.

Jasebird · Nov 12, 2019

Did you double check the acct. #......so frustrating but has to be an explanation......good luck

stevec14 · Nov 12, 2019

If you marked the transaction as complete then I guess you have an issue....

should be easy if your bank speak to chrono should it not?

Evitzee · Nov 12, 2019

I suspect the problem is a Euro wire being sent to a US bank, it's probably been shunted aside and stuck in the system. Most US banks are clueless when it comes to anything that isn't dollar denominated. Get as much information as you can from Chrono24 as to the particulars of the wire (if you don't have this info already), then you'll have to get to someone in your banking system who can trace where the wire is. HSBC will have a desk who can do this, but you'll have to find out how to get to the proper person who can help. You may have to have Chrono24 rescind the wire and resend it in USD, there was no reason for them to send it in Euros in the first place......that was their mistake and they should work with you.

orlis · Nov 12, 2019

Jasebird
Did you double check the acct. #......so frustrating but has to be an explanation......good luck

yeah i checked it of course and it is correct, but I fully understand your suggestion 😀

stevec14
If you marked the transaction as complete then I guess you have an issue....

should be easy if your bank speak to chrono should it not?

I did not mark anything as complete - buyer did. there is no way for a seller to mark receiving the money.

Evitzee
I suspect the problem is a Euro wire being sent to a US bank, it's probably been shunted aside and stuck in the system. Most US banks are clueless when it comes to anything that isn't dollar denominated. Get as much information as you can from Chrono24 as to the particulars of the wire (if you don't have this info already), then you'll have to get to someone in your banking system who can trace where the wire is. HSBC will have a desk who can do this, but you'll have to find out how to get to the proper person who can help. You may have to have Chrono24 rescind the wire and resend it in USD, there was no reason for them to send it in Euros in the first place......that was their mistake and they should work with you.

This is what I also think. At the same time HSBC in big international bank, if they don't know how to deposit EUR...than I don't know how it should work. I also notice on the confirmation from Bank that Chrono24 uses, that the money were send to HSBC USA through HSBC France from BNP Paribas in Luxembourg. I don't know why there is a middle man there as HSBC France.

asrnj77 · Nov 12, 2019

You need documentation from Chrono showing the wire transfer (this shouldn’t be an issue). Then call or travel to HSBC and give them the transfer document. They’ll easily be able to interpret it and let you know where the money is. It’s possible they used your old account and it bounced back to Chrono’s account.

Bugbait · Nov 13, 2019

It's likely the wire was made using SWIFT which means the originator (Chrono24) and beneficiary (your account) should be clearly documented. Either end of the transaction should be able to supply the details. This is a regulatory requirement in most countries.

Any intermediary banks (i.e. HSBC France) are normal for international wires since HSBC USA likely doesnt have an agent relationship with BNPP but HSBC France does (check out Correspondent Banking if you are curious and want to know more).

Best of luck tracing your funds.

orlis · Nov 13, 2019

asrnj77
You need documentation from Chrono showing the wire transfer (this shouldn’t be an issue). Then call or travel to HSBC and give them the transfer document. They’ll easily be able to interpret it and let you know where the money is. It’s possible they used your old account and it bounced back to Chrono’s account.

Bugbait
It's likely the wire was made using SWIFT which means the originator (Chrono24) and beneficiary (your account) should be clearly documented. Either end of the transaction should be able to supply the details. This is a regulatory requirement in most countries.

Any intermediary banks (i.e. HSBC France) are normal for international wires since HSBC USA likely doesnt have an agent relationship with BNPP but HSBC France does (check out Correspondent Banking if you are curious and want to know more).

Best of luck tracing your funds.

thank you so much for all the suggestions.

I’m in direct contact with Chrono24 and have the wire proof document with swift code from them. My bank however claims it cannot be traced, but I only reach people from infoline. I contacted bank via the app as it seems is the only way to contact them in written. I’m awaiting their response, they asked me to wait for 3-5 business days.

Bugbait · Nov 14, 2019

Your bank should be able to confirm if they received the SWIFT MT103 message based on the reference given by the sender, Chrono24. The Transaction Reference Number (SWIFT MT103 - Field 20) is mandatory.

If they have received the SWIFT message then Field57A/B/C/D will tell them which bank or financial institution has received the payment. This should be a BIC (can locate exact details by entering it into something like: https://www.iban.com/search-bic). Field59/A will indicate the beneficiary account (account at institution in Field57) number which should hopefully be your current or previous account. Usually the account holder's name is also included in this field.

All parties in the wire transaction should (barring any illegal modifications) receive the same SWIFT message which means any of them can confirm the details. However, only the sending or receiving parties are likely to assist.

orlis · Nov 14, 2019

Bugbait
Your bank should be able to confirm if they received the SWIFT MT103 message based on the reference given by the sender, Chrono24. The Transaction Reference Number (SWIFT MT103 - Field 20) is mandatory.

If they have received the SWIFT message then Field57A/B/C/D will tell them which bank or financial institution has received the payment. This should be a BIC (can locate exact details by entering it into something like: https://www.iban.com/search-bic). Field59/A will indicate the beneficiary account (account at institution in Field57) number which should hopefully be your current or previous account. Usually the account holder's name is also included in this field.

All parties in the wire transaction should (barring any illegal modifications) receive the same SWIFT message which means any of them can confirm the details. However, only the sending or receiving parties are likely to assist.

Thank you for the detailed explanation! I provided the swift reference number to the bank and they asked me to wait 3-5 business days for a reply. I also got the swift message so i see that bank account and name are correct.

57A field is correct BIC number of my bank and even this one is dedicated to international wires.. so I see that all the details are correct on the swift message but the money never arrived...

Bugbait · Nov 14, 2019

In that case your bank has the responsibility to investigate and trace the funds. Good luck!

orlis · Nov 14, 2019

Bugbait
In that case your bank has the responsibility to investigate and trace the funds. Good luck!

I'm waiting already 10 days for them to answer and they replied today asking to call them so that the consultant can dial in wire department team member to help answer my request.....is there any institution where i can file official complaint about bank not able to investigate and trace the funds?

EDIT: on the call - of course consultant knows nothing....

larryganz · Nov 14, 2019

orlis
I'm waiting already 10 days for them to answer and they replied today asking to call them so that the consultant can dial in wire department team member to help answer my request.....is there any institution where i can file official complaint about bank not able to investigate and trace the funds?

EDIT: on the call - of course consultant knows nothing....

?? https://www.fdic.gov/consumers/assistance/filecomplaint.html

Evitzee · Nov 14, 2019

orlis
I'm waiting already 10 days for them to answer and they replied today asking to call them so that the consultant can dial in wire department team member to help answer my request.....is there any institution where i can file official complaint about bank not able to investigate and trace the funds?

EDIT: on the call - of course consultant knows nothing....

US Federal Reserve is the place for banking complaints, look them up online.

orlis · Nov 14, 2019

im on the phone with them still and they said they CAN NOT find the wire with the swift reference i provided. they also said they can only search wires by the date and amount (which i also provided).

after another hour on the phone:

3 different teams checked the details of the swift message (I forwarded it to them) and were not able to trace the wire with this reference. They send an investigation request to London office but they also insisted that the issuer of the wire should contact HSBC directly. They said that typical procedure they also follow is that the bank sending the wire is obliged to check with the receiver bank if they wire successfully reached destination if they don’t have in their system info that it was delivered.

Bugbait · Nov 14, 2019

If a SWIFT reference is available then a bank should always try to locate it via that. Using other fields as you've documented makes sense if the transaction cannot be located by the reference. If your bank (beneficiary) cannot locate the message then they are right that you should escalate back to the originator (Chrono24). Assuming they're not incompetent (a stretch at times) then they genuinely may not have received the message. SWIFT messages are all processed automatically.

While it's obviously a pain, the originator is ultimately responsible for ensuring the transaction is completed since they initiated the transaction in the first place. Chrono24 can contact BNPP to find out if the transaction has completed or is being held up for some reason. Chrono24 should be able to get a copy of the MT202COV message as well for validation. All SWIFT transactions involving correspondent banking (i.e. BNPP to HSBC France in this case) should have both a MT103 and MT202COV, although sometimes the latter is missing.

Regarding the comments above about EUR to USD being an issue, it really shouldn't be. FX transactions are extremely common via SWIFT and is the reason correspondent banking exists.

orlis · Nov 14, 2019

Bugbait
If a SWIFT reference is available then a bank should always try to locate it via that. Using other fields as you've documented makes sense if the transaction cannot be located by the reference. If your bank (beneficiary) cannot locate the message then they are right that you should escalate back to the originator (Chrono24). Assuming they're not incompetent (a stretch at times) then they genuinely may not have received the message. SWIFT messages are all processed automatically.

While it's obviously a pain, the originator is ultimately responsible for ensuring the transaction is completed since they initiated the transaction in the first place. Chrono24 can contact BNPP to find out if the transaction has completed or is being held up for some reason. Chrono24 should be able to get a copy of the MT202COV message as well for validation. All SWIFT transactions involving correspondent banking (i.e. BNPP to HSBC France in this case) should have both a MT103 and MT202COV, although sometimes the latter is missing.

Regarding the comments above about EUR to USD being an issue, it really shouldn't be. FX transactions are extremely common via SWIFT and is the reason correspondent banking exists.

Thank you so much for all the explanations! It is super helpful and give me some ammunition to use with Chrono24.

I will report back if I learn anything new.

T.Lin · Sep 20, 2022

orlis
Thank you so much for all the explanations! It is super helpful and give me some ammunition to use with Chrono24.

I will report back if I learn anything new.

I am curious how your case was ultimately resolved as I am also in a similar situation right now.
I sold my watch using Chrono24’s secure payment recently, carefully following every instruction as per CN24 guidelines, and yet I have not received the fund. Although all information in the SWIFT message is correct, the fund did not arrive in my bank account. It has been more than six weeks since the lost fund has been under investigation, and I have not gotten a helpful update from CN24 so far. It has become so upsetting and frustrating that I no longer have my watch or the fund.