Finally got a vintage Rolex Submariner 1680 Red in original condition including the folded link bracelet. The watch is a 1971 model with a 3m serial number. The dial is a Mark V. I had one 15 years ago and have always regretted selling it. This one is for keeps now

 

I have to ask this: is that what's considered "excellent condition" for a vintage Rolex? I know it can be hard to find all original because of the service replacement dials and bezels.

 

Maybe in my own opinion, but I stand corrected and will edit post. Thanks

 

watch looks good to me mate! congrats

 

Nice pick up. I like it very much.

 

No, I wasn't commenting on the condition - I was genuinely asking if that's what's considered excellent for a vintage Rolex tool watch. I honestly don't know! The only thing I recall about Subs is that faded bezels seem to be preferred over replacement ones, just like with Speedmasters.

 

To me it looks excellent. If I was to have a red sub, I would like it to look like that. I doubt, though, that I will ever own a red sub. More likely will I stick to the two white 1680 that I have.....

 

I wouldn't hesitate to classify this as very good to excellent
condition for a red sub. Some honest wear to the case with minimal polishing, excellent lume patina, good fat font bezel insert with some fade. I like it.

 

She's beautiful, and in very good condition for vintage rolex.. especially the dial. I'll likely never own a red sub either, but if i did I hope its half as nice as this one! Congrats!

 

Yiu can find them from the seventies that look considerably better preserved, but that's a beauty and it's aged very gracefully. It's Interesting to see how diferently these watches age, just like the Speedies.

That's my birth year so dibs, and by dibs I mean let go of the damn watch NOW!!

 

Dennis, here are some excerpts of guidelines from a collector/dealer
who, 5 years ago was considered the "expert" on Red Submariners.
Since then, he had some other problems that do not affect the guidelines
he came up with posted here.
The guidelines give an idea of what Rolex Red collectors are looking for
as far as condition.

Patina or No Patina

The world of Rolex vintage collecting is full of theories and mysteries. I have yet another theory that is shared by some collectors about how and why the markers and became yellowish with patina while other watches remained white. By talking to original owners, I have observed that watches worn regularly, DID NOT turn yellow, or develop a patina. On the other hand, watches that were unworn and presumably stored in a drawer or a safety box, turned colour. The degree of patina or lack thereof probably depended on the amount of light exposure and other environmental factors not entirely clear to me. Similarly to the Tropical Brown Sub, the aging process stopped after several years and I don't believe that the process is ongoing. The markers will not continue to turn white or yellow depending on light exposure any longer.

A more important question that needs to be answered about patina and that is How much patina is desirable? Ultimately, this is a personal preference. Some collectors like watches that look like they came out of the factory and prefer the white markers, while others like to see a more vintage look with more patina.

When evaluating patina, the main thing to look for is that markers have nice EVENLY coloured patina and that they do not have dark spots or streaks (marbling). Although the darker patinas (5+) can give a watch a really interesting look, the they tend to be more likely to have markers with discolouration problems. It is also important to note that matching patina on the dial with the hands is also important. (See the section on Hands.) Watches with strong even patinas (3 & 4) are highly sought by collectors and bring strong premiums!

Dial Imperfections

Due to natural aging, minor dial defects are acceptable and unavoidable when collecting Red Subs.

1. Broken Hash marks are the most common minor imperfection found on Red Sub dials (and other matte Rolex dials). Small parts of some of the hash marks chip off where the case meets the dial. This chipping occurs when the watch is taken apart for service. It is so common that it is one of the tells used to confirm authenticity. Therefore, small chips or missing pieces at the end of a hash mark touching the case, or even a few hash marks, is normal. However, if an entire hash mark is missing, then this can be easily seen with the naked eye and has an adverse effect on value.
2. Tiny chips where the dial meets the case are also fairly common. When they are and difficult to notice with the naked eye, it is not a problem. I would avoid dials that have chips that are larger.
3. Tritium Loss on the markers Red Sub dials is fairly common and is perfectly acceptable. I would try to avoid watches with dials that have large chunks of missing tritium to the point where it is a distraction.
4. The Red Writing (Submariner) on dials that have Red over White printing is almost always imperfect due to the manufacturing process used to create the dials. It is normal for these dial versions (Mark I, III, IV) to show some white on the edges of the letters. It is also natural for some white to show through the red lettering.

Aftermarket Parts aka Fakes

Watches that have aftermarket dials, also known as fake dials, should be avoided at all costs. Most of these watches have many other fake parts and you are probably buying a few hundred dollars in parts for thousands of dollars!

It is also a good idea to stay away from watches with refinished dials. These are dials that have been scraped of all original print material and then reprinted, usually very poorly. I have seen claims that the dial is an original Rolex dial, which is technically true, however once refinished they are pretty much worthless.

I would also stay away from relumed dials because these dials never look as good as the original factory finish. Relumed dials are more acceptable on older gilt models, depending on rarity and condition of the rest of the watch. Red Sub markers typically do not degrade enough to warrant redoing. Therefore, Red subs with relumed dials have a very low demand and trade at steep discounts.

Hands

Hands should match the patina on the dial. If hands do not match, have been relumed, or have been changed to Luminova, it can be an eyesore. However, hands can be replaced without too much effort. But depending on the patina, they can be difficult to find in the right colour. If you buy a watch that needs hands to be changed, hopefully, you are getting a slight discount for this and are patient enough to find the hands that match. Most collectors prefer matching tritium hands that do not glow, but Luminova hands can be a nice match to a dial with very white markers.

I do not mind original hands that have some minor oxidation or corrosion or even small cracks in the Tritium. As long as these imperfections are not a distraction, I will not change these hands in order to keep the watch as original as possible. I only replace hands when they do not match the colour of the dial patina or have noticeable chunks of missing Tritium.

Inserts

The insert can make the watch and is probably the most aesthetic component aside from the dial! The most desirable inserts are the FAT FONTS which came installed from the factory originally. The amount of fading someone prefers is a personal preference and also depends on the watch for which it is intended. In the past few years, prices of attractively faded FAT FONT inserts have increased dramatically. These used inserts fetch high premiums even when they are scratched up.

I would certainly add a premium if a watch had an especially nicely faded FAT FONT insert. While inserts are more easily replaced than other components, like the hands, they can be expensive and difficult to find, keep this in mind when buying a watch that has a Thin Font service insert.

The thinner font varieties are service replacement inserts and later came with Luminova pearls. They do not tend to fade and are still available from Rolex today. They are usable, but they do not enhance the look of a watch like the faded inserts with the fatter fonts.

Pearl Dot

The pearl is one of the least critical components when purveying a Red Sub but buying a Red Sub that still has a tritium pearl on the insert that is still intact is like getting the cherry on the cake. Most pearls lost their luminous material or broke off altogether. Although they can be easily replaced, they are getting difficult to source.

Aesthetically, the pearl is not part of the dial and hands ensemble and therefore the colour of the pearl does not have to be as close in colour match as the dial and hands.

Caseback

The Red Sub casebacks starting with the 2M case numbers and ending with about 3.4M were stamped with a date code starting with II 69, and ending with II 72. Somewhere in the 3M range, the date code was dropped. It is pretty clear that all watches from 1973 onward did not have a stamped date code. Rolex service replacement casebacks did not have date codes.

Case Condition

Next to the dial, the case is the second most important and valuable component of a Red Sub. Unlike hands or an insert, a case is something you cannot easily change or improve on a watch without buying another. Therefore, it is important to gauge the case condition and make sure it is strong enough to suit your tastes. Most watches will have been polished at least once. It is very rare to find a Red Sub with an unpolished case. I have learned to treasure such finds and would pay a very strong premium for an unpolished case even if the watch has other inferiorities.

Polishing a watch is definitely an art form more so than fixing a watch. It is very easy to ruin a watch with a bad polish and just because a watch was serviced at Rolex does not mean anything when it comes to how poorly it was polished.

One has to remember, that polishing, no matter how light, takes metal off the watch. Therefore, unless there is a very specific gouge or scratch is causing a distraction and only in an area that has already seen polishing, I would not even consider polishing a case any further. I consider this wear part of the beauty of wearing a vintage watch and eliminates that most awful feeling of putting on that first scratch on a new or freshly polished watch. The only thing worse is getting your first ding on that brand new sports car.

Here is a loose guide to evaluating cases in order of priority:

1. Case Engravings The engravings help authenticate the case and therefore it is important that they are not completely lost from bracelet wear, pitting or intentional mistreatment. Unlike some earlier Rolex references, Red Subs generally don't have severe bracelet wear problems or pitting. Therefore, I would not consider buying a Red Sub with engravings or a case numbers that have worn off completely. As a minimum requirement, all the case number digits must be present and accounted for. Even if the digits are missing most of their form and a 10x loupe is needed to read the numbers, as long as the full case number can be discerned, then the watch earns a passing grade in my book. Once the numbers have been confirmed and the band is back on the watch, the strength of the engravings becomes irrelevant.

2. Lugs Examine the lugs to make sure they are not too thin and that they are about the same thickness. Sometimes in one of the lugs sustains a serious injury and the owner has no choice but to over-polish one of the lugs making it thinner than the others.

3. Crown Guards - Look at the crown guards to see if they have been polished to a pinch. It is also a good idea to compare the size of the crown guards, as sometimes one side can be polished significantly more than the other.

4. Pitting or Corrosion Slight pitting is normal, but Excessive pitting or corrosion can be detrimental. Check between the lugs and where the case meets the caseback. Avoid watches that have severe problems with corrosion or if the pitting completely obliterates any of the digits of the case number.

Crown

Red Subs with case numbers

Although there are no premiums attached to having either crown, it is nice to see a watch with its original Twinlock crown still in place. This novelty adds a small flair of authenticity and some reassurance that the watch is still in its original state.

Bracelet

The bracelets are easily changed and therefore I would not look critically at a watch without a bracelet or if a watch has a later bracelet. I readily admit that I am not an expert on bracelets, so if you have any corrections or input, please feel free to make additions or corrections.

1. The Movement
   
   The power plant of all Red Sub models is the Rolex made 1575, however all the engravings I have ever seen on the rotor bridge are have been marked 1570. The 1575 is the same movement as the 1570, with the exception that the 1575 has a date function. The same movement was used in all the Rolex sport models like the 1675, 1655 and the 1665. It is a great automatic movement that is relatively inexpensive to service with parts readily available. When oiled and regulated, it can run for many years with great accuracy and dependability.
   
   Since the movement and/or parts are easily obtained, or simply swapped with much less expensive Rolex models of that period, I would not look to the movement to verify if a watch is genuine.
   
   If a watch is running strong, it is certainly a plus, but I would not discount a watch if it is not in perfect running condition. But I would rather get a watch in its original condition and have it serviced my way. It can be some trouble and expense to have a service performed, but it is a small price to pay for a nice original Red Sub. There have been numerous times when I have had owners who decided to sell their watch take them in for service, only to have them ruined from a collectors point of view.
   
   Box & Papers
   
   When I first started collecting, I sought out watches with papers because it helped reassure me that the watches were not stolen or fake. Over some years, I learned that these are not primary reasons to buy watches with papers. I heard the statement You can't wear the papers. Many times. The question is why bother paying all that money for watches with papers? The answer is simple: RARITY. Rarity means collectability. I was very glad to have made this decision, because the watched I bought increased in value more dramatically than any of the loose watches that I collected.
   
   Papers are not for everyone. If you simply want a nice watch for the lowest possible price and are not looking for an investment, forget the papers, buy a nice Red Sub and enjoy!
   
   Papers are for serious collectors who are looking for investment grade pieces. In the recent market upturn, it was clear that because of their rarity, that watches with papers accelerated in value when compared to loose watches. This will very likely repeat itself in the next upturn. Most collectors recognize this phenomena and this is the reason that sets with papers still fetch healthy premiums.
   
   It is important to note that Red Subs may have come with a variety of papers from the dealer. The Red Subs that deserve the with papers premium are the ones that come with either of the PUNCHED GREEN CERTIFICATES (with a matching case number) pictures here. Even though dealers sometimes used papers on which they wrote in the case numbers by hand, handwritten papers do not carry the same premium as punched papers. The same applies to blank papers.

 

Archer has a fantastic red sub. Maybe he'll chime in with some pics....

 

I'm sorry if you think I misunderstood your post but actually I also felt that "excellent" was not the right word to describe a well used 40 year old watch that still need overhauling and cleaning. Cheers.

 

Question, and this is a question not a passive aggressive comment. Is that the original bracelet? (not the NATO the steel of course) I ask because I have a 5512 from the same year but I didn't get the original bracelet with it...instead I got the same one that's on the picture. I'm just wondering if the 5512/13 had a different bracelet altogether than the red subs, or if, like with mine, you got a replacement bracelet from a couple of years later.

Mine also has a less orange patina and aging. creamy yellow but not as strong. Interesting on the post above because I always assumed that subs that had MORE exposure to the sun would have more yellow tritium and worn dials...but I guess the opposite could be true, as in Tritium with less exposure to sun would turn more orange. Anyway, interesting read.

 

not listed in chart, but-
Rolex C&I riveted bracelets are also correct for mid 60's 5512
marketed in USA

 

Yes its the original bracelet that came with the watch and stamped 9315 on the bracelet and 360 on the end link. For the time being, I'm using a NATO because I need to find and add another folded link for the steel bracelet to fit my wrist.

 

Beautiful watch that I can only dream of owning.

 

Interesting. I'm pretty sure in my case it's not Original or at least it was part of the appraisal made by 3 different experts. It's a birth year 5512 so I had the shit of it checked out. All agreed that bracelet was not or I Original, the watch cade movement and dial etc all original and the crown could be Original or it could be a replacement made mid seventies but it's the correct crown. they insisted is could be but could not certify 100%. In any event being a birth year and since I myself don't have all my original parts after a big back surgery I figured it was good enough for me.

 

Very nice sub!! Congrats...Here is my similar vintage Red Sub. 3.6mm sn with MkIV dial. It spent the majority of its life in a coin jar unworn and developed a deep patina.

 

Now we're learning some stuff!