Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

Canuck · May 13, 2021

Did you know that, in 1924, the Gruen Watch Co. was celebrating its 50th anniversary. The company introduce very limited range of watches to celebrate the anniversary. The watch was pentagonal in shape, and was available in (I suspect) 14-karat gold cases in green gold and white gold. The movements were made with the plates in karat gold, as well. The price at introduction was $500.00, advertised in the National Geographic magazine, and likely elsewhere.

Eugene T. Fuller published a book entitled “The Priceless Possession of a Few”, in 1974, the 100th anniversary of the company. The initial run of this book was 650 copies, and It is likely by now, out of print. There is no Library of Congress catalog number in it, so it could be a challenge to track down a copy. If interested in seeing pictures, and reading more about this watch, here is a link:

https://www.ashlandwatches.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=VC2-087-SOLD

I posted a picture of this 14-white gold pentagonal Gruen, just the other day. This one is from 1930, and it is not a 50th anniversary model. The movement in the 50th anniversary watch appears to be the same as the one below.....except of course for the gold movement.

JimInOz · May 13, 2021

WestCoastTime
The way the barrel bridge covers the click, I think the little lever is the only way you would be able to disengage the click to let the power down for the mainspring.

Yep, it dawned on me a few seconds after I posted it.
I initially thought that's what it was, and then thought no, it would let down the spring too quickly and damage things.
But you let it down in the case and control the let-down with the crown.

Should've put more thought into it before I posted.

noelekal · May 14, 2021

What about Hamiltons (and others?) with melamine dials? Apparently they were introduced after World War II?

Are they to be avoided? Collected as a variant if they are in good condition? Did Hamilton offer the older style dials once Melamine was introduced?

This one's been on Ebay for a long while.

"Rare Vintage 1968 Hamilton Railway Special 992B Pocket Watch Never Carried New In Box. Condition is New with Original Box. 21 Jewel. 10 Karat Gold Filled C522510. It has only been wound twice. It does have a few hair line cracks in the face."

I don't understand the price. Well ... I think I do and it's absurd.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133496567561?hash=item1f1503f709:g:3UMAAOSw4VJfO0TJ

Pvt-Public · May 14, 2021

noelekal
Condition is New

Should say “New but damaged”. As a matter of fact I’d even leave out the new verbiage. And it looks hideous. Hairline cracks? In who’s world?

TexOmega · May 14, 2021

Damaged, and appears, from the pronounced double sunk dial, to be porcelain. Usually one sees Gilllions of hairlines throughout the dial, very small hairlines.

should have one example of it in your collection as a contrast with the gorgeous double sunk porcelain that came before

Canuck · May 14, 2021

noelekal
What about Hamiltons (and others?) with melamine dials? Apparently they were introduced after World War II?

Are they to be avoided? Collected as a variant if they are in good condition? Did Hamilton offer the older style dials once Melamine was introduced?

This one's been on Ebay for a long while.

"Rare Vintage 1968 Hamilton Railway Special 992B Pocket Watch Never Carried New In Box. Condition is New with Original Box. 21 Jewel. 10 Karat Gold Filled C522510. It has only been wound twice. It does have a few hair line cracks in the face."

I don't understand the price. Well ... I think I do and it's absurd.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133496567561?hash=item1f1503f709:g:3UMAAOSw4VJfO0TJ

Earlier melamine dials tended to deteriorate faster than later melamine dials did. Whether it was the process or the recipe that changed, I don’t know. The dials between 992b, 950b, 952 (the three footed ones), apparently are interchangeable. You might luck out and find somebody parting out a watch. But if and when you do, they are usually asking more for the dial than the watch is worth. Then there are Swiss metal dials (ugh!). I don’t recall ever seeing a melamine dial deteriorate like that! If the seller is asking obscene money, good luck!

noelekal · May 14, 2021

I'm thinking I'd be happiest with a porcelain dialed variant. Especially on a $2500 buy-it-now.

Canuck · May 14, 2021

I paid $275.00 (Cdn.) for this one with a perfect double dunk vitreous enamel dial. The case is very good to excellent!

DaveK · May 14, 2021

noelekal
What about Hamiltons (and others?) with melamine dials? Apparently they were introduced after World War II?

Are they to be avoided? Collected as a variant if they are in good condition? Did Hamilton offer the older style dials once Melamine was introduced?
...

Canuck can add more, but I understand that since Melamine is a plastic of sorts, they have a tendency to degrade. They could simply crack and crumble with age regardless of how well you treat them. Enamel dials though, could look great 1000 years from now. Nothing wrong with a melamine dial in your collection (perhaps even as a replacement for a destroyed enamel dial), but unless you want A LOT of pocket watches, of which a few are melamine, I’d stay way from them. Collectors value enamel dials more highly, and I think they are worth it. Hamilton may have had some enamel left in certain styles of dial as they transitioned into melamine, so a firm cut off date is not likely. They used melamine for production cost reduction, I don’t think they offered the customer a choice of one or the other (like trim levels in cars)

Canuck · May 14, 2021

According to Art Zimmerla in his pamphlet on the 992B (published for the NAWCC regional, May 2003), the vitreous enamel dial was discontinued in favour of the melamine dial, in 1949. I have only ever bought two watches with melamine dial. I bought a Hamilton 950B in the mid 1980s that had a melamine dial. It now has a NOS double-sunk, 12-hour (unfortunately not 24-hour) dial that came from a friend who stumbled on TWO of them. The other one is a 992B in a model 15 case from 1950. These 992Bs only came with a melamine dial. Maybe @noelekal can pick up one of those cheap, that has a better melamine dial.

I’ve shown my 950B with its NOS vitreous enamel dial.

TexOmega · May 14, 2021

The last paragraph points to the decline of Hamilton, all the R&D dollars to get an Electric Watch to consumers by 1960 were waisted when the movement was less than ideal even though they nailed the aesthetics.

thanks to NAWCC for posting the letter

TexOmega · May 14, 2021

Canuck · May 14, 2021

Lots of good content! Thanks to @TexOmega for posting the particulars of the 992B in the stainless steel case. And also for the data sheet on the melamine dial. Good stuff!

JimInOz · May 15, 2021

All this talk of porcelain dials got me fired up again.

First, here's my dial.

And here we are, I got frustrated with this quite some time ago so I put it in the bottom drawer and got on with other stuff and forgot all about it.

So now it's back out and I'm determined to sort out a couple of little issues. It's too beautiful a movement to sit in a drawer.

JimInOz · May 15, 2021

And while we're talking Hamiltons, I noticed that the winding wheels on the 992B donor I received are different.

A bit of Googling indicates to me that they may be for 950B movements.

Any truth in that, or did 992Bs also have this style of decorated wheels?

Canuck · May 15, 2021

Porcelain is a form of earthenware, typically used in producing dinnerware and decorative hollowware such as vases, etc. Vitreous enamel is not porcelain! It is GLASS. The dial on your 992B is vitreous enamel, not porcelain!

The ratchet wheel from your 992B could not possibly be from a 950 B! The 992B has a going barrel, and the 950B is a motor barrel. See image.

View attachment 1221169

There were two different finishes applied to the winding wheels on the 992B. I am not near my books at the moment, but I believe the pattern changed in 1949. All three of mine have a pattern different to yours. The pattern on yours is very much like the pattern View attachment 1221169 on the 950B that I posted.

View attachment 1221177

Canuck · May 15, 2021

According to Art Zimmerla in his summary on the history of the 992B (NAWCC regional talk, May of 2003), the circular pattern shown on the crown wheel and ratchet wheel of @JimInOz 992B, was changed to the plainer brushed pattern, in 1950.

JimInOz · May 15, 2021

Canuck
According to Art Zimmerla in his summary on the history of the 992B (NAWCC regional talk, May of 2003), the circular pattern shown on the crown wheel and ratchet wheel of @JimInOz 992B, was changed to the plainer brushed pattern, in 1950.

👍

Interesting about the wheel finishes, I'll have to chase up my serial numbers to see which wheels go with what movement.

And my apologies for calling the dial "porcelain", it's a term I picked up somewhere, probably saw it on eBay.
I will now adhere to the descriptor "vitreous enamel".

As to my reference to the wheels being on a 950B, all I can say is...........

::facepalm1::

TexOmega · May 15, 2021

Dueber-Hampden
12s 17j Grade 307 Model 5
circa 1918
Dueber gf case

noelekal · May 15, 2021

Some of the decorated dials of the early 20th century like yours TexOmega are lovely. I'm guessing that's a painted application rather than the vitreous enamel? Some feature a silken look which one supposes may be achieved with paint.

It's nice that y'all include a year of production in your descriptions of the watches you post here. I enjoy learning the age of the watches. It's a help for the person who is learning to age pocket watches by their features.

I'm finding that porcelain is a misnomer when used as a dial description as is commonly seen. It's vitreous enamel and has been for a few hundred years?

We see the enamel dials cracked with frequency? Ebay's full of pocket watches cracked enamel dials being described as in fine condition. Among pocket watch brands, did some do vitreous enamel better than others? Or, were the dials contracted to dial makers who produced for several makers? Perhaps the dial makers had different grades of vitreous enamel dials that could be ordered?

I view pocket watches on ebay and other internet sites. Any of the brands can be found with cracks, however I am gaining an impression that Elgin and Illinois dials are more prone to have cracks than are the Waltham or Hamilton dials. Is this a valid observation?