Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

It arrived! My 1887 Illinois model 2 grade 5, 15 jewel, 18 size. Despite the description saying that the hands did not work, they work just fine. What this watch does need though is a good cleaning. It runs for fifteen to thirty seconds then stops, you can see excess oil wicking out around the mainspring arbor. I'm guessing that when I take it apart I'll find it pretty thoroughly gummed up.

Even the WatchFinder on YouTube is talking about pocket watches now

So many trade marks in watch cases are more complete and easily identified, than the trade mark in
@Waltesefalcon ‘s handsome coin silver case. I checked Warren Neibling’s book on American watch case makers,
and no joy for the N & Co. trade mark. Likewise the Shugart book. I guess 120 plus (approximately) years ago,
N & Co. had no idea that the case would still be in existence in 2021, and that someone would wonder about its origins. Sigh! A cross we have to bear.

Here’s the skinny on @Waltesefalcon ‘S handsome watch.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/illinois/711580

I have two Illinois model 2, grade 4, Railroader pocket watches. Basically the same movement as the subject Illinois watch, major differences being my two are only 11-jewel models, and they are listed as not being railroad grade, or railroad approved. Yet the bridge over the train wheels on my model 4s have a woodburning locomotive and tender engraved on the plates! But, like the subject watch, my model 4s are both transitional stem or key winders. At the time the subject watch was made, the railroad standard watch was very different to the railroad standard watch after 1892. What I find fascinating about these watches is how they evolved over 100 years, in reaction to how railroads evolved. And in this thread, we have seen U S-made pocket watches from as early as the 1860s, all the way up to the late 1960s. And how these watches, tracing 100 years, are an important part of an interesting story! Fascinating!

My other Keystone Howard series V. One of two that I have. I bought this one at an NAWCC mart about 20 years ago. The price was very reasonable, because it had problems. Just my cup of tea! It is in a correct case for a Series V, but it wouldn’t wind. I bought it.

When we returned home, I checked it out. The square on the stem was probably from the previous tenant that was in the case, and the square was too large for the female winding hub in the movement. That was easy to solve.

Here’s the skinny on my Howard series V.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/e.-howard-watch-co.-keystone/1108992

Keystone Howard series Vs have appeared frequently in this thread. This movement has 19-jewels, motor/safety barrel, adjusted to 5 positions, heat, cold, and isochronism. Lever set. They were railroad approved on most if not all railroads, both sides of the 49th.

Edward Howard and Aaron Lufkin Dennison were in on the ground floor as regards watchmaking in the U S A. The company they founded went through a number of name changes, eventually becoming the American Watch Co., Waltham, Mass., then the Waltham Watch Co. Howard and Dennison each went their own ways, with Howard establishing the E Howard Watch & Clock Co. As the U S postal service expanded westward, there was a strong demand for postal scales. Howard designed one, presented his prototype to the U S postal service, and won the contract. He produced countless numbers of his postal scales, many of which were still in use in the U S, into the early 1970s. Howard built tower clocks, magnificent weight driven regulator clocks, and pocket watches, one of which I have shown in these pages. Edward Howard passed away in about 1903. E Howard & Co., sold the rights to the use of the Howard name for watches to the Keystone Watch Case Co. Thereafter, the company that resulted, became the Howard Watch Co. Initially, Keystone was not equipped to hit the ground running, with a pocket watch of their own design and manufacture. So, for a time, they had Waltham supply watches, to Howard specs. The subject watch is one of the Howard Watch Co.‘S own manufacture.

An unusual feature about the dial on this U S purchased watch is the 24-hour dial. The “Canadian” 24-hour dial wasn’t used in the U S, but it was optional in Canada. According to the definitions I have read, a “true” Montgomery dial has the numeral “6” in the seconds bit. If the 6 isn’t there, the dial would be called a “marginal minutes” dial. This dial has the numeral “18” in the seconds bit, so is it a Montgomery dial, or no?

The attachments cannot be found.

Sorry about that! The pictures are there, now. I have two Howard series Vs, and I had uploaded pictures of the other one.

Canuck, do you know when stem wound first began replacing key wound watches?

Am loving the history and background provided with these brands.

I'm just trying to determine which railroad grade watch to look for. Am watching them on Ebay.

Stem wound watches existed in Swiss watches, long before the feature appeared in American watches. IIRC, it was either Patek or Philippe that patented a stem wind system. This was before the Patek Philippe partnership. I know that the Marion Watch Co. (United States Watch Co.) produced the first U S made, stem wound watch. That was in 1867, and the model name was “Frederick Atherton”. These watches were transitional in that they could also be wound with a key. Good thing! I have read that the stem wind system on these watches was very unreliable. The other U S watch companies were still putzing around with kw and ks models. Illinois produced its first stem winder in 1875. Elgin’s first stem winder was produced in 1873. Waltham? I believe it was 1877.

In 1876, a fellow named Henry Abbot patented a kit that would make it possible to convert a key winder to a stem winder. This requires extensive alterations to a key wound movement in order to fit this conversion. He sold about 50,000 of these kits. So, it is possible to find watches that were produced before stem winders became common, that have been converted to stem wind.

As to which “railroad” watch to collect? You couldn’t ask a question that has more possible answers! The first North American railroad was the Baltimore and Ohio, in 1829. They would likely have had to use English watches, as there were no manufacturers of “quality” watches, in the U S, that early. Before the advent of a system of “standard time”, based on the zero meridian at Greenwich, England, was set down in about 1883, standards for what was a “railroad watch” were much looser. Who needed an accurate watch when railroads all operated solar time? Things tightened a bit after 1851 when telegraphy was introduced to operating a railroad. A rail system could subscribe to a time source (such as Western Union) whereby their system entirely operated on the same time, broadcast by telegraphy. regardless of solar time. Now, it became more important that crews had accurate time so their system could operate safely. Every system had its own General time inspector, and every system operated to a standard set down by their inspector. Some crews used a cheap alarm clock hung on a coat hook!

After 1892, with the advent of time standards (and standards for watches) became more clearly defined. Webb C Ball (Acheson, Topeka, & Santa Fe Railroad?) was in control of 125,000 miles of railroads. He was tasked to lay down standards for railroad watches, and to institute an inspection system, that would inspect and maintain these “standard” watches according to his systems. After that, there was greater uniformity in what was a “standard” watch. So, you can see that the question of what to collect, isn’t easy to answer. Even after Ball, things changed, greatly! Advances in metallurgy eliminated temperature variation and magnetized watches. Then, circa 1962! The introduction of the first railroad standard wrist watches!

Learn about the evolution of railroads, and decide which era interests you. Watches have been used in the operation of railroads for almost 200 years. And watches have evolved along with the railroads, and the systems used to run them. A good place to start a collection might be a Hamilton 992B, an Elgin grade 571 B W Raymond, a Waltham Vanguard 1623 (1945 model), an Illinois Bunn Special, there’s lots of choice in modern “standard” watches that are new enough to still be repairable. And can be had without breaking the bank! Then, after you have bit the bullet, expand from there.

Oh! And aren’t pocket watches a whole lot more interesting than wrist watches? I know the wrist watch guys won’t agree. Some of them won’t admit that pocket watches are actually watches!

One of about 60 (as of this year) known to exist.
Hamilton "Engineer Corps USA" Military Issue PW
Number 992 with correct serial number on the movement confirmed from Hamilton's Finishing Dept records.
Circa 1918
RR grade/approved 992 with correct nickel case/hands.

For anyone wanting to learn about pocket watches, railroads, standard time systems, standards for railroad approved watches, telegraphy in operating railroads, etc. etc., I recommend Michael Harrold’s book, a Technical History of the America Watch Industry, 1850-1930. If it is still in print, it might be available from the NAWCC book store in Columbia, Pa. Aside from that, the internet is you friend if you want a copy. Here’s the skinny on @TexOmega ‘s interesting watch.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/hamilton/1311212

Having archival material such as the items @TexOmega has uploaded, certainly adds to the interest concerning the item. And for a 100 year-old watch to be in such splendid condition. Probably not having to do service in the pocket of a soldier in the trenches might be a factor, there.

Hmmm, pics aren’t showing, can you try again 👍

That case could very well be a “swing ring” type. No case back to remove. Remove the bezel and crystal, and look at the edge of the opening in the case for a place to put a fingernail, at the 6:00 position. If this is a swing ring case, the crown will have to be pulled outward as in setting the hands. The movement has a rim around it, the rim being hinged to the case at the 12:00. Carefully, lift the movement on its hinge. Maybe get back to us with a picture of what you see.

I like Waltham Vanguards! Both the 1892 model, and the 1908 model. The one shown here is a 16-size, 23-jewel model.



Here’s the skinny on it.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/20082836

Not a rare watch, but in my view, one of the best “decorated” of American made pocket watches. Well, maybe ONE of the best decorated. The data sheet lists this watch as having the patented Lossier “inner terminal curve” hairspring on it. However, Vanguards so fitted, usually have that fact engraved on the ratchet wheel. That engraving is missing on this particular watch. On the flip side, this watch has one feature that is missing from the data sheet! The arrow points at the cap jewel over the balance wheel, on the balance cock. The cap jewel on the upper and lower balance wheel pivot is a rose cut diamond. A rose cut diamond, magnified, resembles a geodesic dome, as the top side is faceted. The under side of the rose cut diamond is a plain, flat surface.

Ever wonder how the “balance wheel” in a watch is called a balance wheel? Early clocks often had what is known as a “verge and foliot” escapement. Very crude by today’s standards, but these escapements were common. In the attached picture, the “foliot” is the horizontal arm with the regulating weights, one on each end. These were also called a “balance arm”, because it had to balance. As clock designs evolved, the balance WHEEL replaced the balance ARM. Thereafter, with the addition of a mainspring, and miniaturizing. the portable timekeeper became possible.

@Duracuir1 ,

Seems like it is not a swing ring. No removable case back?

50-50 probability......it’s either front or back access👍