Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

TexOmega · Sep 26, 2023

vbrad26
I don’t think this deserves its own thread and I don’t imagine there is any better place to post this.
While cleaning out some grandparent junk, I found this little thing.
So far, I have found out the obvious.
Not sure about the movement though. I just can’t quite make out some of the letters.
Any ideas?

Some info I've gathered......the gold dial Gruen &Son I bought years ago....as a project🤔

Canuck · Sep 26, 2023

TexOmega
Elgin # 478
B.W. Raymond
16s 21j Year:1925
RR Grade/Approved and was Elgin's long time competitor to Hamilton's 992 and 992B..... solid, easily serviced, and affordable

Unique "Elgin RR" at stem

Over 35 years ago, I had a virtually NOS B W Raymond grade 571. I sold it! Stupid! The 571 was a more recent version of the grade 478, but there was little change from the grade 478. The 571 was like the 992E and 992B in that it had a mono-metallic alloy balance wheel and hairspring. The 478 still had the bi-metallic, temperature compensating balance wheel and blued steel hairspring.

About 20 years ago, I was at an NAWCC regional, and I found a grade 571 on a dealer’s table. Not nearly as nice as the one I sold. I bought it, and still have it. When the setting lever cratered, I was unable to buy the parts I needed. I was able to buy the parts I needed from a stem-set version. So it is now a stem set model. I like it, but……..![/QUOTE]

Tire-comedon · Sep 30, 2023

Can I play with you?

From what I found on Pocket Watches Database, I think it is a Waltham 1888 Grade n°640 from around 1888. As I my knowledge in American watches is very limited, any additional info you could give me will be highly appreciated.

Canuck · Sep 30, 2023

@Tire-comedon

Here is what the pocketwatchdatabase.com says about your handsome 1888 model Waltham. That pretty well tells you all there is to know about the 1888 model. I have read that the 1888 model Waltham movement does not fit a standard 16-size case. The model was produced in a variety of different grades with different jewel counts, and different grades of finish. Yours appears to be a relatively scarce grade, and it appears to me to be in very good condition.

The Waltham Watch Co. Had a number of different names over the years of its existence. One being the American Watch Co., Waltham, as is the case with yours. Later, the name was simplified to Waltham signifying the fact that the company was located in Waltham, Mass. You don’t show details as stamped inside the case back, so I am unable to comment on that.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/7596517

Tire-comedon · Sep 30, 2023

Thanks a lot @Canuck here are pictures of the stamps inside the casebacks :

Canuck · Sep 30, 2023

Crescent Watch Case Co. In 1904, the Crescent Watch Case Co. was absorbed by the Philadelphia Watch Case Co., along with several other case making companies. Later, only the Keystone Watch Case Co. name survived. I don’t know where the Crescent Watch Case Co. was located when your case was made. Lacking a karat gold stamping, the case is likely gold filled, or more likely, gold electro-plated.

Tire-comedon · Sep 30, 2023

Thanks a lot for your information. The case is definitely gold filled.

TexOmega · Sep 30, 2023

Tire-comedon
Can I play with you?

From what I found on Pocket Watches Database, I think it is a Waltham 1888 Grade n°640 from around 1888. As I my knowledge in American watches is very limited, any additional info you could give me will be highly appreciated.

Scalloped case, Roman Numerals, Gold Pkg and especially Fleur-De-Lis hands are always Tops with me.👍

noelekal · Sep 30, 2023

Me too Tire-comedon!

Tire-comedon · Sep 30, 2023

Another one. The pocketwatchdatabase says Model1884 Grade Riverside produced in 1889-90 :

Same case manufacturer

Gold filled case is worn

Canuck · Sep 30, 2023

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/3965464

Interestingly, the pocketwatchdatabase.com site lists this handsome watch as Non-Magnetic! The balance wheel (though the watch is running), appears to be non-ferrous mono-metallic, as opposed to the bi-metallic, temperature compensating type. These non-ferrous alloys were more stable during temperature change, but also had the advantage of being non-magnetic! Thereby, I suspect the hairspring is likewise also non-ferrous alloy. Circa 1898, early inter-urban trains that were electric, came into use. Thereby, watchmakers were beginning to pay attention to the problems of magnetized watches. This handsome example appears to be an early one. If I recall correctly, Elgin called their alloy Elginium. Waltham called their alloy Conium, and Hamilton used Elinvar and later, Elinvar Extra alloys. Also note this watch is 14-size which is a size not often encountered. Very interesting watch!

kgb · Sep 30, 2023

ghce
Its the Illinois Watch Case Company located in Elgin, not related to either Elgin or the Illinois watch company.

Thanks very much @ghce . I should have figured that out! 😀

Alpha · Oct 1, 2023

Hope I haven't already posted this image 🤔

Tire-comedon · Oct 1, 2023

Canuck
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/3965464

Interestingly, the pocketwatchdatabase.com site lists this handsome watch as Non-Magnetic! The balance wheel (though the watch is running), appears to be non-ferrous mono-metallic, as opposed to the bi-metallic, temperature compensating type. These non-ferrous alloys were more stable during temperature change, but also had the advantage of being non-magnetic! Thereby, I suspect the hairspring is likewise also non-ferrous alloy. Circa 1898, early inter-urban trains that were electric, came into use. Thereby, watchmakers were beginning to pay attention to the problems of magnetized watches. This handsome example appears to be an early one. If I recall correctly, Elgin called their alloy Elginium. Waltham called their alloy Conium, and Hamilton used Elinvar and later, Elinvar Extra alloys. Also note this watch is 14-size which is a size not often encountered. Very interesting watch!

Thanks a lot again for all those very interesting information. I took a picture of the balance when the watch wasn't running so you can get confirmation :

Canuck · Oct 1, 2023

The two arrows point at splits in the rim of the balance wheel that are typical of a bi-metallic, temperature compensating balance wheel. Yet your balance wheel appears to be mono-metallic (non-ferrous) as one would expect in a mon-magnetic watch. The hairspring appears to be blued steel which would not be non-magnetic! Perhaps the hairspring has been changed, or perhaps Waltham had not solved the challenge of producing a non-magnetic hairspring when this watch was made.

What is puzzling too is there is a pair of meantime screws (one indicated by the red arrow, the other 180° away that is hidden). These meantime screws are used for adjusting “middle temperature error” on a bi-metallic, temperature compensating balance wheel! Yet this balance, being mono-metallic, would not likely be affected by temperature changes! Interesting!

Waltesefalcon · Oct 1, 2023

Canuck
The two arrows point at splits in the rim of the balance wheel that are typical of a bi-metallic, temperature compensating balance wheel. Yet your balance wheel appears to be mono-metallic (non-ferrous) as one would expect in a mon-magnetic watch. The hairspring appears to be blued steel which would not be non-magnetic! Perhaps the hairspring has been changed, or perhaps Waltham had not solved the challenge of producing a non-magnetic hairspring when this watch was made.

What is puzzling too is there is a pair of meantime screws (one indicated by the red arrow, the other 180° away that is hidden). These meantime screws are used for adjusting “middle temperature error” on a bi-metallic, temperature compensating balance wheel! Yet this balance, being mono-metallic, would not likely be affected by temperature changes! Interesting!

Due to its early production age for a monometallic non ferrous balance, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Waltham simply made these balances the same as they had always done, despite the balance not needing the cuts or meantime screws.

1889 or 1890 also seems mighty early for a non ferrous alloy balance spring, so I bet that the blued steel spring is the correct one.

Obviously this is all just speculation on my part, but @Tire-comedon 's gorgeous watch poses some interesting questions and gives us a rabbit hole we can scurry down if we decide to research the development of non-magnetic watches in the US.

Canuck · Oct 1, 2023

The only early non-magnetic Waltham I have ever had my hands on was an 1892 model, 18-size Waltham. I took pictures at the time (30 years ago). I’ll see if I can dig out the pictures out to see what I can find out.

Canuck · Oct 1, 2023

Finding the pictures of the 1892 model, 18-size Waltham non-magnetic model was easier’n I thought. The s# was 7013913. Here is the pocketwatchdatabase.com listing on that watch.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/7013913

Production date circa 1895-1900 which means it is later than the example posted by @Tire-comedon by possibly 10 to 15 years. I have posted a picture of a Waltham 1892 non-magnetic taken from the website, since my picture is lousy. The movement in the picture appears to have the same split-rim, mono-metallic balance wheel, but it HAS what appears to be a non-ferrous alloy non-magnetic hairspring!

Interestingly, this series of movements appears to have been produced in a hunter cased orientation. S# 7013913 is a hunter case model movement with a conversion dial, enabling the movement to be fitted into an open-faced case! The seconds bit is at the 3:00 position!

The example s#7013861 shown is also a hunter case version.

Canuck · Oct 1, 2023

This is a picture of Waltham non-magnetic s# 7013931 showing what happens when you fit a hunter style movement into an open faced case. The seconds bit ends up at the 3:00 position as shown! It seems this entire series of 1892 model, 18-size Non-Magnetic Walthams were produced in the hunter case orientation! Some perhaps fitted into hunter cases, and others into open-faced cases as shown! Curiouser and curiouser! If you fit an open face movement into a hunter case, the reverse happens. The seconds bit ends up at the 9:00 position. Conversion dials were available to allow these kinds of conversion.

Canuck · Oct 1, 2023

Tire-comedon
Another one. The pocketwatchdatabase says Model1884 Grade Riverside produced in 1889-90 :

Same case manufacturer

Gold filled case is worn

Interesting that the movement is marked Riverside, but it is not marked Non-Magnetic. The pocketwatchdatabase.com site however, lists it as Non-Magnetic! I just checked a back issue of the Shugart, Engel, & Gilbert bible, and the 14-size Riverside 1884 model Waltham is listed, but the 1884, 14-size Non-Magnetic Riverside isn’t listed! That might lead one to wonder how many of the subject 1884, 14-size Waltham Non-Magnetic were included in that total production! Aren’t pocket watches interesting?