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TexOmega
·
Edited:
Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs
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Canuck
·And!
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Canuck
·Another watch with a story. Unfortunately, not a happy one.
Many years ago, an elderly long time watchmaker where I live, passed away. His son inherited the residue from his business. He advertised that he was clearing the accumulation of parts and tools. I went to the sale, and bought what I wanted. He apparently kept my name, and about ten years later, I got a call from him. He indicated that he he had a rare and valuable watch, and he wondered if I might be interested. I asked him to bring it. He did.
The watch he brought was neither rare, or valuable. It was an 18-size, 17-jewel Hamilton grade 927, made circa 1903. It was in running condition. The grade 927 was a grade that originally was fitted into a hunter style case. This watch was no longer in its original case, but a chrome plated, open faced, aftermarket case. I told him the watch was not rare, not valuable, and not totally original. I made him an offer which clearly disappointed him. He accepted my offer, and left.
This happened on a Tuesday. On Friday, that week, I came home from work. I read in the daily paper about a murder/suicide that happened on the Thursday, in a town about 100 kms north of here. You may have guessed who it was!
Since then, I have fitted the 927 movement into a so so gold filled hunter case which will do, until I luck into a better one.
Many years ago, an elderly long time watchmaker where I live, passed away. His son inherited the residue from his business. He advertised that he was clearing the accumulation of parts and tools. I went to the sale, and bought what I wanted. He apparently kept my name, and about ten years later, I got a call from him. He indicated that he he had a rare and valuable watch, and he wondered if I might be interested. I asked him to bring it. He did.
The watch he brought was neither rare, or valuable. It was an 18-size, 17-jewel Hamilton grade 927, made circa 1903. It was in running condition. The grade 927 was a grade that originally was fitted into a hunter style case. This watch was no longer in its original case, but a chrome plated, open faced, aftermarket case. I told him the watch was not rare, not valuable, and not totally original. I made him an offer which clearly disappointed him. He accepted my offer, and left.
This happened on a Tuesday. On Friday, that week, I came home from work. I read in the daily paper about a murder/suicide that happened on the Thursday, in a town about 100 kms north of here. You may have guessed who it was!
Since then, I have fitted the 927 movement into a so so gold filled hunter case which will do, until I luck into a better one.
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Canuck
·An example of evolution in watch movement design. How movements can change over decades. Our subjects are: a later grade 950B Hamilton on the right, and an earlier grade 950 Hamilton on the left.
1- At A on both images, the arrow points at the balance wheels on both movements. On the grade 950 (left), we have a bi-metallic, temperature compensating balance wheel with blued steel hairspring. On the 950 B on the right, the arrow points at a solid rim, mono-metallic balance wheel, and an alloy Elinvar Extra hairspring.
2- At B on both images, the arrow points at the fourth wheel upper jewel. On the grade 950 on the left, the jewel is in a separate setting, fitted into a milled recess, and held in place with two screws. All the jewels on this grade 950 are this way. On the grade 950B on the right, all the jewels have adopted the Swiss system of friction fit, non-removable jewels.
3- At C on both images, the arrow is pointing at the regulator whiplash spring. On the grade 950 on the left, the whiplash spring is the same spring as used on (for example) the grade 992. On the grade 950B on the right, the whiplash spring is the same as the grade 992B.
4- At D on both images, the arrow points at the barrel bridge. On the grade 950 on the left, the arrow points at the split in the barrel bridge, making the barrel bridge into two parts. On the grade 950B on the right, the arrow points at the same spot. On the 950B, Hamilton made the barrel bridge a one-piece bridge. Their reasoning was that the one piece bridge was simpler to work with when the barrel bridge had to be removed, say, when replacing a mainspring.
Other differences include changing the location of the case screws. Fancier etching on the ratchet wheels and crown wheels. Gold train wheels on the grade 950, and brass train wheels on the 950 B. Chatons on the jewels of the 950 are gold, and brass on the 950B. Note the longer neck on the pendant of the 950 compared to the 950B. On the 950, the upper cap jewel on the escape wheel arbor is inset while the upper escape wheel cap jewel on the 950B adopted the same method as the 992B. The cap jewel is in a separate bib, affixed with a screw. Compare the different barrel bridge shape at the edge of the ratchet wheel on the two models. Slightly changed shape of the train wheel bridges on the two models.
The grade 950 (left) was made about 50 years earlier than the 950B. They are both collectable watches, and in their day, they were equally capable of doing the job they were made to do. But many folks prefer the greater attention to detail on the grade 950.
1- At A on both images, the arrow points at the balance wheels on both movements. On the grade 950 (left), we have a bi-metallic, temperature compensating balance wheel with blued steel hairspring. On the 950 B on the right, the arrow points at a solid rim, mono-metallic balance wheel, and an alloy Elinvar Extra hairspring.
2- At B on both images, the arrow points at the fourth wheel upper jewel. On the grade 950 on the left, the jewel is in a separate setting, fitted into a milled recess, and held in place with two screws. All the jewels on this grade 950 are this way. On the grade 950B on the right, all the jewels have adopted the Swiss system of friction fit, non-removable jewels.
3- At C on both images, the arrow is pointing at the regulator whiplash spring. On the grade 950 on the left, the whiplash spring is the same spring as used on (for example) the grade 992. On the grade 950B on the right, the whiplash spring is the same as the grade 992B.
4- At D on both images, the arrow points at the barrel bridge. On the grade 950 on the left, the arrow points at the split in the barrel bridge, making the barrel bridge into two parts. On the grade 950B on the right, the arrow points at the same spot. On the 950B, Hamilton made the barrel bridge a one-piece bridge. Their reasoning was that the one piece bridge was simpler to work with when the barrel bridge had to be removed, say, when replacing a mainspring.
Other differences include changing the location of the case screws. Fancier etching on the ratchet wheels and crown wheels. Gold train wheels on the grade 950, and brass train wheels on the 950 B. Chatons on the jewels of the 950 are gold, and brass on the 950B. Note the longer neck on the pendant of the 950 compared to the 950B. On the 950, the upper cap jewel on the escape wheel arbor is inset while the upper escape wheel cap jewel on the 950B adopted the same method as the 992B. The cap jewel is in a separate bib, affixed with a screw. Compare the different barrel bridge shape at the edge of the ratchet wheel on the two models. Slightly changed shape of the train wheel bridges on the two models.
The grade 950 (left) was made about 50 years earlier than the 950B. They are both collectable watches, and in their day, they were equally capable of doing the job they were made to do. But many folks prefer the greater attention to detail on the grade 950.
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noelekal
··Home For Wayward Watches... he loves that watch like James Ward Packard loved his Patek Philippe Grand Complication.
Made me look it up.
https://watchesbysjx.com/2017/09/th...ated-the-worlds-most-expensive-timepiece.html
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LesXL
·An example of evolution in watch movement design. How movements can change over decades. Our subjects are: a later grade 950B Hamilton on the right, and an earlier grade 950 Hamilton on the left.
1- At A on both images, the arrow points at the balance wheels on both movements. On the grade 950 (left), we have a bi-metallic, temperature compensating balance wheel with blued steel hairspring. On the 950 B on the right, the arrow points at a solid rim, mono-metallic balance wheel, and an alloy Elinvar Extra hairspring.
2- At B on both images, the arrow points at the fourth wheel upper jewel. On the grade 950 on the left, the jewel is in a separate setting, fitted into a milled recess, and held in place with two screws. All the jewels on this grade 950 are this way. On the grade 950B on the right, all the jewels have adopted the Swiss system of friction fit, non-removable jewels.
3- At C on both images, the arrow is pointing at the regulator whiplash spring. On the grade 950 on the left, the whiplash spring is the same spring as used on (for example) the grade 992. On the grade 950B on the right, the whiplash spring is the same as the grade 992B.
4- At D on both images, the arrow points at the barrel bridge. On the grade 950 on the left, the arrow points at the split in the barrel bridge, making the barrel bridge into two parts. On the grade 950B on the right, the arrow points at the same spot. On the 950B, Hamilton made the barrel bridge a one-piece bridge. Their reasoning was that the one piece bridge was simpler to work with when the barrel bridge had to be removed, say, when replacing a mainspring.
Other differences include changing the location of the case screws. Fancier etching on the ratchet wheels and crown wheels. Gold train wheels on the grade 950, and brass train wheels on the 950 B. Chatons on the jewels of the 950 are gold, and brass on the 950B. Note the longer neck on the pendant of the 950 compared to the 950B. On the 950, the upper cap jewel on the escape wheel arbor is inset while the upper escape wheel cap jewel on the 950B adopted the same method as the 992B. The cap jewel is in a separate bib, affixed with a screw. Compare the different barrel bridge shape at the edge of the ratchet wheel on the two models. Slightly changed shape of the train wheel bridges on the two models.
The grade 950 (left) was made about 50 years earlier than the 950B. They are both collectable watches, and in their day, they were equally capable of doing the job they were made to do. But many folks prefer the greater attention to detail on the grade 950.
And thanks to all the other knowledgeable contributors as well!
So, nice to read this thread with my coffee 😀
Edited:
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TexOmega
·Home Watch Co...... (American Watch Co (Waltham) lower line watches)
18s 7j Model 1857 KWKS
Circa 1874
American Watch Co coin silver case
18s 7j Model 1857 KWKS
Circa 1874
American Watch Co coin silver case
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DaveK
··Yoda of YodelersI’ve never seen Home Watch Co before, thanks for sharing 👍
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Canuck
·As I understand it, this grade was introduced when there was a turf battle going on between the American Watch Co. (Waltham), and the National Watch Co. (Elgin). Notice that the American Watch Co. name didn’t show anywhere on this watch. The idea being that the Home watch would not be associated with the American (Waltham) Watch Co. Later on, an even cheaper model called the “Broadway” was introduced. The Home watch also competed with Swiss Roskopf watches, as well as many other low priced watches from Switzerland. The case on the subject watch isn’t marked COIN, but it has all the appearances of being a coin silver case. The National (Elgin) Watch Co. went on to produce about twice as many watches as the American (Waltham) Watch Co. So, who won the turf battle? An excellent example, may I say.
This watch has an “undersprung” hairspring, following the English and European designs. Instead of the hairspring being on TOP of the balance wheel with the hairspring stud secured to the balance cock, it is beneath the balance wheel, with the attachment being to the train bridge. Not all 1857 Walthams were built this way. I have put callouts on a picture of the movement. The arrow at A is pointing at the bib which is screwed to the train bridge, where the outer end of the hairspring is pinned. Notice the arrow at B which points out the absence of an “escutcheon”, or dust trap around the winding arbor, as is normally found on key winders.
This watch has an “undersprung” hairspring, following the English and European designs. Instead of the hairspring being on TOP of the balance wheel with the hairspring stud secured to the balance cock, it is beneath the balance wheel, with the attachment being to the train bridge. Not all 1857 Walthams were built this way. I have put callouts on a picture of the movement. The arrow at A is pointing at the bib which is screwed to the train bridge, where the outer end of the hairspring is pinned. Notice the arrow at B which points out the absence of an “escutcheon”, or dust trap around the winding arbor, as is normally found on key winders.
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TexOmega
·Like always, there are always more with less. A big Market to target.
And they identified from Boston not Waltham, Mass to further their allusion.
And they identified from Boston not Waltham, Mass to further their allusion.
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Canuck
·Like always, there are always more with less. A big Market to target.
And they identified from Boston not Waltham, Mass to further their allusion.
Good point! I noticed the Boston, but didn’t think about it not being engraved Waltham. Sharp eye @TexOmega . It’s amazing how much stuff you can sniff out if you just look for it, isn’t it.
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Canuck
·Bump!
Here’s another pocket watch with a story. It has been told in these halls before, but not in this thread.
This is a family watch. My wife’s family. It belonged to her great grandfather who was a sergeant in the Union Army during the Civil War, in the U S A. After military service, he was sheriff in Paducah County, in Kentucky. After he married, he took up farming in Kansas. After the children came, his missus was concerned about the safety of the children, owing to tornados that occasionally blew through the area. In about 1895, they moved to Spangle, in Washington State, to a farm, there. He also ran a hardware store in Spangle.
Early in the 20th century, he acquired the subject 18-size, 19-jewel, Elgin B W Raymond pocket watch. This watch was of railroad grade, but would not likely ever have been approved for railroad use. The reason? The dial and hands would never have passed for use on railroads. What was he thinking? Here is the skinny on this watch.
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/8579963
You may notice that this watch was from the first run of this grade, and was made circa 1900. The movement design is called 3/4 plate which was out of the ordinary for an 18-size, American made watch. Most American 18-size watches of all grades used a full plate design which was thicker, and more difficult to work on. My late mother in law decided 30 years ago that she wanted our son to have it. Yeah, after I die!😁
Here’s another pocket watch with a story. It has been told in these halls before, but not in this thread.
This is a family watch. My wife’s family. It belonged to her great grandfather who was a sergeant in the Union Army during the Civil War, in the U S A. After military service, he was sheriff in Paducah County, in Kentucky. After he married, he took up farming in Kansas. After the children came, his missus was concerned about the safety of the children, owing to tornados that occasionally blew through the area. In about 1895, they moved to Spangle, in Washington State, to a farm, there. He also ran a hardware store in Spangle.
Early in the 20th century, he acquired the subject 18-size, 19-jewel, Elgin B W Raymond pocket watch. This watch was of railroad grade, but would not likely ever have been approved for railroad use. The reason? The dial and hands would never have passed for use on railroads. What was he thinking? Here is the skinny on this watch.
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/8579963
You may notice that this watch was from the first run of this grade, and was made circa 1900. The movement design is called 3/4 plate which was out of the ordinary for an 18-size, American made watch. Most American 18-size watches of all grades used a full plate design which was thicker, and more difficult to work on. My late mother in law decided 30 years ago that she wanted our son to have it. Yeah, after I die!😁
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Duracuir1
··Never Used A KodakMy wife and I enjoy old movies. This choice of entertainment and the fact that I “pause and zoom” at watches instead of girls clearly shows that I am getting old.
I have seen “The Public Enemy” so many times, and always like seeing this pocket watch display. Not zoomed here...
I have seen “The Public Enemy” so many times, and always like seeing this pocket watch display. Not zoomed here...
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Canuck
·Here’s another pocket watch with a story.
About 30 years ago, I was at an NAWCC regional in Portland, Ore. in those days, the most knowledgeable collectors would likely have made off with a lot of high profile collectibles during illegal “tailgate” sessions before the mart started. Then, these same folks would sweep the mart room, in search of the “cherries”. I was never one of that group, back in the day.
One dealer at that mart only had a few watches, two of which piqued my interest. I showed one of these, earlier in this thread. This one was on the same dealer’s table. It had been overlooked by other collectors, primarily because the name on the dial was D R DINGWALL LTD. No location, nothing else. It would take a Canadian collector with an interest in railroad pocket watches and railroads to recognize that the Dingwall name refers to probably the biggest, most prominent railroad watch inspector in a major railroad divisional point.....Winnipeg, Manitoba! At one time, Dingwall had a shop with 20 watchmakers! A lot of aspiring watchmakers took their training and apprenticeships at Dingwalls. The firm was bought out by Henry Birks & Sons in 1933.
The name on the dial of this watch did not encourage too many collectors at that mart. I was not deterred. I love Canadian private label watches. I had the sellers permission to open the watch. Within the Canadian made swing ring” case is perhaps the nicest Hamilton 18-size, 19-jewel, grade 944 movement that might be found. I bought the watch! The watch.
Here is the skinny on the watch. Made circa 1907.
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/hamilton/479017
About 30 years ago, I was at an NAWCC regional in Portland, Ore. in those days, the most knowledgeable collectors would likely have made off with a lot of high profile collectibles during illegal “tailgate” sessions before the mart started. Then, these same folks would sweep the mart room, in search of the “cherries”. I was never one of that group, back in the day.
One dealer at that mart only had a few watches, two of which piqued my interest. I showed one of these, earlier in this thread. This one was on the same dealer’s table. It had been overlooked by other collectors, primarily because the name on the dial was D R DINGWALL LTD. No location, nothing else. It would take a Canadian collector with an interest in railroad pocket watches and railroads to recognize that the Dingwall name refers to probably the biggest, most prominent railroad watch inspector in a major railroad divisional point.....Winnipeg, Manitoba! At one time, Dingwall had a shop with 20 watchmakers! A lot of aspiring watchmakers took their training and apprenticeships at Dingwalls. The firm was bought out by Henry Birks & Sons in 1933.
The name on the dial of this watch did not encourage too many collectors at that mart. I was not deterred. I love Canadian private label watches. I had the sellers permission to open the watch. Within the Canadian made swing ring” case is perhaps the nicest Hamilton 18-size, 19-jewel, grade 944 movement that might be found. I bought the watch! The watch.
Here is the skinny on the watch. Made circa 1907.
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/hamilton/479017
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DaveK
··Yoda of YodelersLet’s talk about pocket watch stands for a moment. I was bidding on this until I was outbid beyond the point of it being fun-money (after all, that Rolex isn’t going to buy itself!).
I’d love to see some pocket watch stands make an appearance in this thread 😀
I’d love to see some pocket watch stands make an appearance in this thread 😀
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Mad Dog
·Railroad grade Elgin B.W.R. 494 [circa early 1930s] for Thursday...
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Canuck
·Methinks I detect stampings on the base which look suspiciously like a hallmark, a date letter, a standard mark, and possibly a maker’s trade mark! Might that stand be sterling silver? Drop dead gorgeous. I have only one pocket watch stand. But it is so utilitarian compared to the subject stand, I am reluctant to show it. Matter of fact, it is so long since I have either used it or seen it, at the moment, I don’t know where it is!
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noelekal
··Home For Wayward WatchesWhat about some terms?
Mad Dog's Elgin has a "Motor Barrel" and I've seen pocket watch movements marked "Double Roller." I'm not familiar with these terms.
Mad Dog's Elgin has a "Motor Barrel" and I've seen pocket watch movements marked "Double Roller." I'm not familiar with these terms.