Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

TexOmega · Apr 6, 2023

Canuck
How railroad standard watch rules changed. This is a picture of my 21-jewel Hamilton 941 (very similar to the subject Hamilton 943). My grade 941 is from 11 years after @TexOmega ’s grade 943. The 943 was produced in 1902 when railroad standards accepted hunter cased watches. By the time my grade 941 was produced (1913), it was not considered railroad grade.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/hamilton/696010

If you compare the pocketwatchdatabase.com information on the grade 941 (mine), and the 943 (@TexOmega ’s), they are very similar, feature for feature. Yet the grade numbers differ. I wonder what the difference between the two might be.

My grade 941 was produced after standards changed as to how a railroad standard movement had to be marked. You might notice that the grade 943 is simply marked adjusted, while the grade 941 is marked adjusted to 5 positions. The grade 943 and the grade 941 both had the motor barrel feature. Yet only the grade 941 is marked as having that feature.

I had a note to post this information IF I ever found it. I ran across it in a Hamilton movements file in an old external HDD when seeking something else.....

So, Canuck.....a bit late, but this is how Hamilton promoted the 941 vs their 943 movement at some point in time.

Canuck · Apr 6, 2023

TexOmega
I had a note to post this information IF I ever found it. I ran across it in a Hamilton movements file in an old external HDD when seeking something else.....

So, Canuck.....a bit late, but this is how Hamilton promoted the 941 vs their 943 movement at some point in time.

I don’t recall the grade 943 appearing in that thread. The information you provided lists the grade 942 (open face), and the grade 943 (hunter case). They both appear to be more highly adjusted than the 941. The grade 942 and 943 appear to be adjusted to the equivalent of the 940. The Shugart book shows the 940, 942, and 943 to be very similar.

@TexOmega ,

Very interesting! I had assumed that the Hamilton grade 941 was the equivalent to the 940, only in a hunter case. The information you provided shows that the 941 was not adjusted to the equivalent level of the 940. Thanks for that. Also, it appears that the 943 was adjusted to a higher level than the 941. By the time the 941 was made (11 years later than @TexOmega ‘s 943), hunter cases would not have been accepted for railroad use. So, did Hamilton de-tune the 941 because it was no longer accepted for railroad use?

TexOmega · Apr 7, 2023

Canuck
@TexOmega ,

Very interesting! I had assumed that the Hamilton grade 941 was the equivalent to the 940, only in a hunter case. The information you provided shows that the 941 was not adjusted to the equivalent level of the 940. Thanks for that. Also, it appears that the 943 was adjusted to a higher level than the 941. By the time the 941 was made (11 years later than @TexOmega ‘s 943), hunter cases would not have been accepted for railroad use. So, did Hamilton de-tune the 941 because it was no longer accepted for railroad use?

I would think so.....less finishing, less adjustment, less features, less labor and priced less to the public.

ghce · Apr 7, 2023

A modern iteration.
https://pocketwatchsite.com/product...watch-swiss-made-mechanical-movement-dbrmsr7/

Sorry cant do a screen grab on this machine.

Canuck · Apr 7, 2023

The Hampden “Special Railway” (Swiss version) likely has an ETA 6497 movement in it. I think it is the same movement as used in Tissot mechanical pocket watches. The price on this “Hampden” is very favourable, compared to Tissot prices. There was a recent limited edition “Hamilton” pocket watch put on the market. It has the same movement I believe. And the Omega calibre 960 is (again) the same movement. I don’t know how an Omega and Hamilton would compare pricewise with the Tissot and Hampden. Sounds to me as though the price of this Swiss Hampden beats Tissot, Hamilton, and Omega, all with the same movement.

Included the Eta 6497 movement, and the Swiss Hampden.

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ghce · Apr 8, 2023

Well my Saucer full of Secrets is growing.

Now all I needs is stems and cases.

Well takeaway container of trash to others.

Research for bits is ongoing.

Canuck · Apr 8, 2023

Aaron Lufkin Dennison was one of the founders of the company that eventually became Waltham. In the early years (circa 1852), Waltham didn’t have the capability of producing all the components of their watches. Vitreous enamel dials was one thing, and another (I have read) was hairsprings. Aaron Dennison moved to England where he was the point man for products the Waltham factory required. He established a case manufacturing business there as well. And for years, he was the agent for Waltham in the U K. Waltham watches were very popular, there. A lot of Waltham watches sold in the U K were sold with plains (No maker name) dials. A lot of the watches shown by @ghce are behind plain dials, and are all Walthams.

ghce · Apr 11, 2023

Omega back after service, new balance staff and a refresh.

Just need to find a balance staff for this Technos now.
Technos is an AM 520 movement
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&AM_520&

Canuck · Apr 12, 2023

I had coffee with a friend several weeks ago. He had questions about the types of lathes that I use. He brought with him a pocket watch that had been in his sister’s family. The sister (in her 80s) had initially informed him that she would be keeping it, but some years later, she changed her mind. Now my friend owns it. I didn’t keep a before picture of it because it had afugly older plastic crystal, and there was rust forming on the hands. I told him I would put a nice glass crystal, clean the dial, and clean the hands sometime when it was convenient. Today was the day.

The watch is a 16-size, 21-jewel, Keystone Howard Series 10. Picture shown taken after crystal replaced, hands and dial cleaned up. Watch dates from 1913, and while not rare, it might be classed as scarce nowadays. Quite collectible. Double sunk vitreous enamel 12-hour dial has three hairlines, but it is in good shape for a watch that is 110 years old.

S.H. · Apr 13, 2023

Just bought this one in a bundle today. I can't identify it, I don't think it is a valjoux ébauche, not a Minerva either. Well made but not particularly high grade. Nickel case, or another white metal, not silver.

Main course of the bundle was this, 45g+ of 18k I weighted it. It did cost me a bundle.

Canuck · Apr 15, 2023

The largest model train show in Canada was suspended for 20, 21, and 22. Supertrain is sponsored by the Calgary Model Railway Society, and the two day show usually draws 15,000 plus over two days. Pent up demand will likely see a new record set for the show. Out exhibit of railway watches and clocks participated. These photos were taken on Saturday the 15 th before the doors opened.

We exhibited 100 pocket watches, mostly railroad grade and railroad approved, all running and set to time. And an exhibit of railroad standard wrist watches, electro- mechanical, quartz, auto wind, and manual wind. Also three Seth Thomas railway standard clocks. Busy, busy, and whew am I bushed!

TexOmega · Apr 15, 2023

S.H.
Just bought this one in a bundle today. I can't identify it, I don't think it is a valjoux ébauche, not a Minerva either. Well made but not particularly high grade. Nickel case, or another white metal, not silver.

Main course of the bundle was this, 45g+ of 18k I weighted it. It did cost me a bundle.

The first movement might be by Martel. I have seen many Martel movements in UG wrist watches(TriCompax) stamped with that big "M" however, UG was always aware enough to place their name on the dial.

Both extremely nice, indeed.

And that first one's original case may have been sacrificed for the $$$ value at some point.

S.H. · Apr 16, 2023

TexOmega
The first movement might be by Martel. I have seen many Martel movements in UG wrist watches(TriCompax) stamped with that big "M" however, UG was always aware enough to place their name on the dial.

Both extremely nice, indeed.

And that first one's original case may have been sacrificed for the $$$ value at some point.

Thanks, I did not think about martel in my research. I'll have a look.

As for the first one, that is exactly why I buy these things when they come to me in good shape. This one is roughly 1600e worth of scrap gold already. So I carefully weight the watch case without movement, buy at the current gold rate paid by founders (who are only trading with professionals: a regular guy can't sell to them, and usually sells to intermediaries at a lower rate). I get to buy gold at a nice price, the watch is not destroyed and simply sleeps unharmed in my retirement fund, and the seller usually gets a better rate than a random gold trader / destroyer would offer. Everybody wins.

Gold value is so high these days that for massive 18k cases, I don't think there is any real premium from the watch itself. So I ended up with some good stuff: chronograph, repeater, high grade movement, etc.

noelekal · Apr 18, 2023

This Hamilton 940 was one of the early acquisitions of the 2021 madness here, but don't think it's been posted before.

I've been running it since last week about this time and it's lost near a minute. Needs a service.

I really like the swing-out case that a few of the pocket watches here feature. It seems like an almost exotic feature somehow and seems dramatic when one pivots the movement out of the case.

I really loath the swing-out cases that a few pocket watches here feature. They seem fiddly and I'm afraid I'm going to pull the crowns off when I open them. The stem where it fits back into the hole in the side of the movement looks like a weak point in the design and easily broken. I've not broken one yet though.

Not certain I can visualize a good purpose in the swing-out case.

Canuck · Apr 18, 2023

I too have a Hamilton 940. Mine is a private label for the firm D R Dingwall Limited, Winnipeg, Manitoba. I bought it at an NAWCC mart about 30 years ago. It would take a Canuck to recognize the name Dingwall, though no location was given. A quick check proved it to be a grade 940 Hamilton. I bought it! I checked the ‘net a few minutes ago, and found out some information re: the D R Dingwall firm, and found the attached. Finding out a snippet of information about an item in our collection makes for more interest.

S.H. · Apr 18, 2023

noelekal
Not certain I can visualize a good purpose in the swing-out case.

Maybe cheaper to manufacture than a three part case? Also easier to dust- and waterproof.

Canuck · Apr 18, 2023

While I was posting the Hamilton 940 private label for D R Dingwall (above), it occurred to me that I also have a Hamilton grade 944, private label for jeweller G M Rioch of Kenora, Ontario. Overlooked by other buyers at an NAWCC mart. I found out a bit about the watch inspector, G M Rioch.

RobMc · Apr 18, 2023

I don't have much to offer here, but I'll add what I can. FYI, I intentionally avoid pocket watches to prevent another addiction.

I bought all 3 of these pocket watches at an estate sale for 40.00. All needed help,

The first is what I believe is a Waltham 1895 model with a production date around 1907. 7 jewels I believe. This watch had bad threads on the case back when I got it, spent hours with a lupe and a razor fixing the threads. I'm still super cautions when I open it. It keeps reallly good time.

The second is another Waltham 1895 with a similar production year, but with a higher grade "riverside" grade movement. Sadly it isn't complete, and needs a good amount of work.

The last is an Ingersoll-Trenton that I know very little about.

Canuck · Apr 18, 2023

Your Walthams are both 1899 models. The better of the two is the Riverside. Add to the purchase price of watches, the cost of servicing them, and you deplete your watch collecting budget. In other words, buy watches, not repairs. Spending on repairs takes a bite out of your collecting budget. The only one (in my view) that has any potential is the Riverside.

RobMc · Apr 18, 2023

Canuck
Your Walthams are both 1899 models. The better of the two is the Riverside. Add to the purchase price of watches, the cost of servicing them, and you deplete your watch collecting budget. In other words, buy watches, not repairs. Spending on repairs takes a bite out of your collecting budget. The only one (in my view) that has any potential is the Riverside.

No nonsense. I bet you're fun at parties! I'm just kidding. I'm not new to watches, just to pocket watches. Im well aware of the cost of services, but never had any intention of spending anything on servicing these. The 7j Waltham works, which is fun, which is the whole point. I knew the riverside had the highest upside, but it needs a lot of work. I'm torn between trying my hand at rebuilding it, or just selling it as a parts watch.