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Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs
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Fritz
·The Illinois Watch Co. Was bought out by Hamilton, circa 1928-29. The first Illinois watch to be finished by Hamilton was the grade 161. This was basically a Bunn Special 60-hour with a model number given to it by Hamilton. The watch was still marked as an Illinois, but the movement was marked Illinois Watch, Springfield. The abbreviation CO was omitted on Hamilton-made Illinois watches. The grade 161 had 21-jewels. There were 8 versions of the Illinois Bunn Special 60-hour grade 161 produced by Hamilton, including an Elinvar model. Hamilton also produced basically the same movement with 23-jewels. It was the grade 163, and was made in 4 models. One model was not equipped with Elinvar, while the other 3 were equipped with Elinvar. Hamilton had experimented with a 60-hour movement, but I gather it never got past the prototype stage.
This all leads to a question for @Fritz . What is the serial number and jewel count on your Illinois Bunn Special 60-hour, and how is the movement marked? With the CO. , or without the CO. ? Is it a grade 161 or 163. That was how Hamilton marked these models.
(This information gleaned from the Meggers & Ehrhardt “blue book” on Illinois, and Shugart, Engel, &. Gilbert bible # 34 from 2014.)
serial 5110950.
I checked the numbers and labelling when I first purchased this little jewel, at your suggestion if I remember correctly, and it is a pre-Hamilton watch. Just a plain old type III, 21 jewel, 60 hour, motor barrel, adjusted to 6 positions lump under he hood...
so sad... *sigh*
I was happy as hell to find it as this stuff is pretty thin on the ground in Canada these days.
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Canuck
·serial 5110950.
I checked the numbers and labelling when I first purchased this little jewel, at your suggestion if I remember correctly, and it is a pre-Hamilton watch. Just a plain old type III, 21 jewel, 60 hour, motor barrel, adjusted to 6 positions lump under he hood...
so sad... *sigh*
I was happy as hell to find it as this stuff is pretty thin on the ground in Canada these days.
I gather it is marked Illinois Watch Co? The “blue book” lists that as being 1928. It also lists the fact that Hamilton watches with S# after 5 million, were made by Hamilton. But chances are that there was an inventory of completed material on hand when Hamilton bought Illinois, and yours might have been assembled of completed material that was on hand. Hence it is marked like an Illinois. I think it was produced by Hamilton as an Illinois. Unless Meggers & Ehrhardt are wrong on the cut off date. Interesting to speculate.
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noelekal
··Home For Wayward WatchesYou make a point Fritz on the 60-hour winding tedium. The late 1926 Illinois Sangamo Special here offers 60-hour reserve and winding like trying to get through one of those "all day suckers" they use to sell when we were kids.
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Canuck
·My Bunn Special 21-jewel, 60-hour. Comparing this one to @noelekal ’s 23-jewel Sangamo, one obvious difference between the two is the jewelled main wheel. My 21-jewel version has a call-out which points at the main wheel arbor which is not jewelled. The S#s are within about 2,000 of each other.
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noelekal
··Home For Wayward WatchesOn the way to someplace else ...
I ran across these photos in the Photobucket account. They were taken over five years ago at the Texas Civil War Museum. https://texascivilwarmuseum.com/
At the time I took them I intended to feature them here on the Forum and inquiring about them. Never got "a round tuit."
What do we see here?
I love reading Civil War history and have visited many Civil War museums North and South in my time. This museum, which is nearby us, is one of the most comprehensive I've seen. I was unaware of its existence for some years. If one seeks a reference collection of arms, accoutrements, ordnance, uniforms, and equipment then this one is first rate.
There is an entire wing that comprehensively covers ladies' fashion from the 1830s to the earl 1900s and all garments are original. It's a vast and most interesting collection and worth seeing in itself.
That's Mrs noelekal with the bright melon purse.
I ran across these photos in the Photobucket account. They were taken over five years ago at the Texas Civil War Museum. https://texascivilwarmuseum.com/
At the time I took them I intended to feature them here on the Forum and inquiring about them. Never got "a round tuit."
What do we see here?
I love reading Civil War history and have visited many Civil War museums North and South in my time. This museum, which is nearby us, is one of the most comprehensive I've seen. I was unaware of its existence for some years. If one seeks a reference collection of arms, accoutrements, ordnance, uniforms, and equipment then this one is first rate.
There is an entire wing that comprehensively covers ladies' fashion from the 1830s to the earl 1900s and all garments are original. It's a vast and most interesting collection and worth seeing in itself.
That's Mrs noelekal with the bright melon purse.
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Canuck
·Re: the John Cragg watch. Baillie lists Cragg, John, London, 1788 to 1811. Being an English watch, it would be interesting to see the hallmark, date letter, and case maker’s mark in order to come to an idea of vintage of the watch. It looks to me to be later than the dates given for Cragg. One major tell is that the watch is equipped with a seconds hand which would imply to me an English lever with fusee, likely after circa 1850 or so. But most certainly prior to the Civil War.
Loomes lists a Cragg, John, London, 1828 to 1863. He’s listed as a wholesaler of watches. The subject watch was (IMO) most likely sold by him.
Loomes lists a Cragg, John, London, 1828 to 1863. He’s listed as a wholesaler of watches. The subject watch was (IMO) most likely sold by him.
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Canuck
·I figured it out this morning when I wound up my ‘28 Bunn Special.
And so, I present..
The Illinois wind indicator defined: close your eyes and pick a watch from your collection and wind it up.
if you get a cramp before you are done winding its an indicator of an Illinois 60 hour spring.
easy...
@Fritz makes a point of disclosing the tedium of winding his Illinois Bunn Special 60-hour. For some months now, I have been running both my Hamilton model 21 marine chronometer with wind indicator, and my Hamilton model 22 torpedo boat chronometer with wind indicator. The model 21 wind indicator dial is marked 56-hours. And if I am not there in the 56th hour or earlier, it stops, dead! On the other hand, the wind indicator on the model 22 is also marked 56-hours. But it runs for closer to 72 hours on a wind. The movement is 35-size, but it has a mainspring that is about 6 feet long. Talk about tedium when winding that one from run down! I’ll have to make it a point to let that one run down, and count the number of turns required to wind it fully! The crown requires about 60 turns when the chronometer has run for 60 hours. But more like 85 or 90 turns to wind it from fully run down.
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noelekal
··Home For Wayward WatchesI think an average of 60 normal "wind twists" stokes up ol' Sangamo for the "full-meal-deal" of 60 hours of merry ticking bliss. I have counted on several occasions.
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Zapatta
·
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Canuck
·Several months ago, a chap from out of town brought me two watches for estimates. One is the subject Waltham pocket watch, and the other was a ‘60s vintage Tudor gent’s manual winder. I prepared the quotes and phoned him. He told me to go ahead with the Tudor, but the Waltham meant nothing to him, he didn’t want to spend money on it, and that I could keep it for parts. Here is the pocketwatchdatabase.com info on it.
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/2665588
I probably have everything on hand that I think I need to return it to health, but I’ll postulate on it for a while before I decide. I might be able to use the case on a Hamilton that needs a case. But this one is an 1877 Waltham, and the pendant on these is different to later pocket watches, and until I check, I won’t know if the swap will work. It is also only a 13-jewel model. Very ordinary R E Robbins grade. Royal Robbins bailed out the nearly defunct forerunner of Waltham, the Boston Watch Co. in the early years. Robbins was a visionary, and he had a great influence over the firm as it transitioned into the firm it became in later years.
The gold filled hunter case is by Dueber, and it is in excellent condition for a 140 year old watch!
Today, he picked up the Tudor and paid me for it. I made him an offer on the Waltham, and he accepted my offer. So it is now mine! (I mighta coulda had it for free, but I’m too honest!)
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/2665588
I probably have everything on hand that I think I need to return it to health, but I’ll postulate on it for a while before I decide. I might be able to use the case on a Hamilton that needs a case. But this one is an 1877 Waltham, and the pendant on these is different to later pocket watches, and until I check, I won’t know if the swap will work. It is also only a 13-jewel model. Very ordinary R E Robbins grade. Royal Robbins bailed out the nearly defunct forerunner of Waltham, the Boston Watch Co. in the early years. Robbins was a visionary, and he had a great influence over the firm as it transitioned into the firm it became in later years.
The gold filled hunter case is by Dueber, and it is in excellent condition for a 140 year old watch!
Today, he picked up the Tudor and paid me for it. I made him an offer on the Waltham, and he accepted my offer. So it is now mine! (I mighta coulda had it for free, but I’m too honest!)
Edited:
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ghce
·Several months ago, a chap from out of town brought me two watches for estimates. One is the subject Waltham pocket watch, and the other was a ‘60s vintage Tudor gent’s manual winder. I prepared the quotes and phoned him. He told me to go ahead with the Tudor, but the Waltham meant nothing to him, he didn’t want to spend money on it, and that I could keep it for parts. Here is the pocketwatchdatabase.com info on it.
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/2665588
I probably have everything on hand that I think I need to return it to health, but I’ll postulate on it for a while before I decide. I might be able to use the case on a Hamilton that needs a case. But this one is an 1877 Waltham, and the pendant on these is different to later pocket watches, and until I check, I won’t know if the swap will work. It is also only a 13-jewel model. Very ordinary R E Robbins grade. Royal Robbins bailed out the nearly defunct forerunner of Waltham, the Boston Watch Co. in the early years. Robbins was a visionary, and he had a great influence over the firm as it transitioned into the firm it became in later years.
The gold filled hunter case is by Dueber, and it is in excellent condition for a 140 year old watch!
Today, he picked up the Tudor and paid me for it. I made him an offer on the Waltham, and he accepted my offer. So it is now mine! (I mighta coulda had it for free, but I’m too honest!)
Nice case, handset and movement.
I don't understand people's motivation when faced with a nice PW.
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Canuck
·Nice case, handset and movement.
I don't understand people's motivation when faced with a nice PW.
Just think of the situation we pocket watch collectors would be in, if it wasn’t for the fact that others quite willingly divest themselves of their pocket watches. I’m fortunate in that I can turn this sow’s ear into a silk purse at virtually no cost! This watch needs a balance staff, a foot hole jewel, a matching minute hand, mainspring, recondition, and a glass, and the previous owner wasn’t in a position to ante up for the repair. Especially after paying for the repair to the Tudor that he’ll gift to his son.