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Beginner Watchmaking Tool Kit: Bergeon vs AliExpress

bergeon cal. 4040p horotec moebius tissot vintage watchmaking
JimInOz
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PS: The keen eyed amongst you may have noticed I've put the wave breaker in the wrong way around for my machine. The "smooth" side of the mesh is facing the direction of rotation. I think the difference would be negligible but I might test it both ways to see if there is any improvement in "enturbulation".
 
AHW
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ErichKeane ErichKeane
yep, I suggest the ST36 for exactly that reason(it is the one used in watchmaker school), but its way cheaper 😀 The Unitas is typically ~$300, the ST36 ~$30, despite being the same movement, just the latter made in china (with all that comes from that).

I have managed to find a cheap non-running Unitas 6497 for spares and also a Seiko 5 with 4r36a for the next step based on your advice! So thank you!

It turns out that the typical watch cleaners (L&R/Elma) are not allowed to be sold to private individuals here, and I am not sure I want to risk buying them from abroad as I don’t know if that will cause issues, if I can even find a shop willing to ship it. The only cleaner that I don’t believe is classified as a dangerous good is the Elma Red 1:9, but it seems to have mixed reviews. Does anyone have any recommendations?
 
Endshake
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I ordered a stainless stell mesh. I will try to fit it to fit my 3d jar washing machine.
 
Leeroy
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AHW AHW
The only cleaner that I don’t believe is classified as a dangerous good is the Elma Red 1:9, but it seems to have mixed reviews. Does anyone have any recommendations?
I use Elma red in an ultrasonic and have no urge to change. I find it easy to buy, store, use and dispose of. You do need to add a couple of deionized water rinses but hey-ho.
On tools I'd recommend not skimping on your tweezers, a nice soft closing pair with "feel" will save you hours of scrabbling around searching for pinged parts.
 
JimInOz
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Leeroy Leeroy
a nice soft closing pair with "feel"
Excellent advice.

My experience.

https://omegaforums.net/posts/2444849/ JimInOz
JimInOz ·
To give you an idea of the force required to used them. I selected my standard Dumont No4 Bronze, a set of Dumont Dumoxel No2 and a set of Vetus ST-14 Stainless tweezers to compare.

Not having a scientific force gauge, I used my jewelers scales and Australian coins to provide weight. The first coin was a $2 placed at the point where your fingers would normally press, the remainder of the coins were then stacked until the tips were just closed.

First test with my favourites.

Just closed.

Dumont Bronze Closed.webp


and only 30.55 grammes required.

Dumont Bronze No4.webp


Next the Dumont No2.

Dumont Dumoxel Closed.webp
...
 
JimInOz
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Endshake Endshake
Can you show me the wavebraker?
I forgot to mention, if your machine oscillates you may not need a wave breaker as by the time the fluid is starting to spin, the basket stops and spins in the other direction.
It will depend on the oscillation period so experimentation may be necessary.
 
AHW
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Leeroy Leeroy
I use Elma red in an ultrasonic and have no urge to change. I find it easy to buy, store, use and dispose of. You do need to add a couple of deionized water rinses but hey-ho.
On tools I'd recommend not skimping on your tweezers, a nice soft closing pair with "feel" will save you hours of scrabbling around searching for pinged parts.

Great thanks for the feedback! Are the non-waterbase cleaners really as toxic as it seems like based on how difficult they are to buy? Or is that just me being paranoid?
 
JimInOz
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AHW AHW
Great thanks for the feedback! Are the non-waterbase cleaners really as toxic as it seems like based on how difficult they are to buy? Or is that just me being paranoid?
They're not difficult to buy, just difficult to ship/transport in many locations.
Toxicity is about the same as filling your car with petrol if you follow commonsense rules.
Keep containers capped and ensure you have good ventilation.

You also need to consider disposal of used/contaminated fluids, you can't just tip Petro based fluids down the drain, you need access to suitable disposal facilities.
 
Leeroy
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AHW AHW
Great thanks for the feedback! Are the non-waterbase cleaners really as toxic as it seems like based on how difficult they are to buy? Or is that just me being paranoid?
Sorry never used them. I looked at the pros and cons and as an occasional tinkerer Elma red fitted my requirements, it's fairly inexpensive, small enough to fit in a cupboard and can be poured down the sink. It's probably not as good as L&R and needs a bit more rinsing so I can see why professionals avoid it. If it's available to you give it a whirl, if you're happy with the results good news, if not move on. Trial and error is a large part of this hobby.
 
AHW
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JimInOz JimInOz
They're not difficult to buy, just difficult to ship/transport in many locations.
Toxicity is about the same as filling your car with petrol if you follow commonsense rules.
Keep containers capped and ensure you have good ventilation.

You also need to consider disposal of used/contaminated fluids, you can't just tip Petro based fluids down the drain, you need access to suitable disposal facilities.

Ok that is good to know! When something is so hard to buy it does make you wonder if there is a reason you aren’t ‘allowed’ it. But I guess the amateur watchmaker market is just very small here (compared to the demand for other household solvents) so the distributors probably don’t think it is worth the trouble.

I can dispose of it at the local dump so that is not a problem. It will absolutely go nowhere near my drains as I live in the countryside so have my own system!
 
AHW
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Leeroy Leeroy
Sorry never used them. I looked at the pros and cons and as an occasional tinkerer Elma red fitted my requirements, it's fairly inexpensive, small enough to fit in a cupboard and can be poured down the sink. It's probably not as good as L&R and needs a bit more rinsing so I can see why professionals avoid it. If it's available to you give it a whirl, if you're happy with the results good news, if not move on. Trial and error is a large part of this hobby.

Great! I think I will be able to get my hands on some of the solvent based fluids, but if that fails I will go with the Elma Red.
 
Leeroy
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lenndon lenndon
One more recommendation regarding tool acquisition: have a look on eBay
As a frugal kind of fellow most of my tools are second-hand. These just arrived for £45 delivered.
20260430_090621.webp
3 Ideal-tek (the older ones are nicer), an Apollo (not bad) 2 anti-magnetic cheapies, a Saint Bride, some snips and 3 Dumonts, 2 of which are hi-techs (4's) and a super hi-tech Dumoxel (5SA ?). The Saint Brides are very nice but I can't find much about the company? The Demoxels are incredibly light closing so I thought I'd try @JimInOz experiment:
20260430_095854.webp
A featherweight 24g! Probably too light for my sausage fingers, my everyday bronze Horotecs came in at 39 and my Fontax 5's are 41g. The normal Hi-techs maxed my scientific apparatus out but came in around 130g
20260430_101344.webp
I decided to level the playing field and adjust their openings to the same size
20260430_104332.webp
The Hi-techs came down dramatically to 51g and the Dumoxel increased to 31 so they may yet replace my beloved Fontax. For reference the adjusted Ideal-techs came in at 55g.
So no real conclusion, apologies for the ramble but I'm recovering from a hand operation and am quite quite bored, thank you for listening 😊
 
AHW
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I thought it would be fun to give an update now that I have disassembled and reassembled the 6497 once. My main lessons were:

1) Using the tweezers and screwdrivers accurately is an art in itself.

2) I will drop the only the smallest screws on the floor.

3) My back hurts.

4) It is very enjoyable and satisfying!

To address number 3, as my current desk is low and I am very tall, I will buy a used office adjustable desk as they are available cheaply and will allow me to raise the work to a better height.

Many of these are available with an ergonomic curved cutout, but I am wondering if a straight edge would be preferable? At least most of the dedicated benches seem to be straight or otherwise have armrests…. Does anyone have an opinion on this or am I overthinking?
 
Endshake
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I also have a straight desk. I think a good hight is the most important.
 
Speedy Guppy
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Great thread. Very informative. I’m getting into the hobby and just ordered my tools. I’ll post when I have all setup.

Do anyone have a good recommendation on courses on watchmaking/restoration?

Thank you!
 
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