Hello,

I'm very new to vintage Longines, but saw this beautiful watch on Auctionata. It is beautiful as-in, but is something off with it? Why is the estimated value so low?

http://auctionata.com/o/98377/longines-chronograph-switzerland-around-1960



One other odd thing is that the cal. number is 5499917, which corresponds to the late 30's, but the auction title suggests 1960. The crown seems not to be original either.

Your opinions are much appreciated

Many thanks!

Peter

 

From the picture I'd have to say redial.
That and 34mm size probably reason for selling for 4k.
You're right, this one according to mov't numer is 1936, first year for the 13zn i believe.

 

Does this secondary example spread some light?

Either they are both from the same redialer, or they are both excellent "survivors".

 

Enamel dials do tend to last an extremely long time.

It sold for €2800 - a bargain if original (IMO it probably is).

 

...and they can usually be cleaned without damaging the markings.

 

Thanks folks. Well it is coming my way. The hands and crystal may not be correct, but everything else (case,crow,dial,movement) has been confirmed by Longines, according to Auctionata.

After the Buyers premium and shipping, the total runs about $4k USD.

 

Congrats!
Im just wondering how Longines confirmed the dial?
While I understand that enamel dials often survive in tact, I'm still not sold on this one- the bleeding of the 2/4/8/10 into the chrono sub dials a bit crude for my (and Longines'?) taste. But I've been wrong many times before....
Let us see more, detailed shots when it arrives.
Again, congrats!

 

Thanks Larry! I was just on the phone with Auctionata about other logistics - they said that they are willing to forward their correspondence with Longines when they can. They were utterly embarrassed when I mentioned that the watch is made in the late 30's, rather than 60's, and said that I need not commit to the watch on this basis alone. But as things stand, I'm quite liking this piece. Will definitely provide more shots when it arrives.

 

Hi All,

So after some digging by Auctionata, Longines, myself, and some vintage experts whom I consulted about the watch, the consensus is that the dial, case, movement, and crown are correct. There is still a bit of vagueness regarding the dial, as Longines records doesn't describe what the dial should look like. But it does indicate that the watch was sold in 1938, and that it is stainless steel, chrono with 13zn. The dial design, case size, short lugs are consistent with watches produced in that period. The most convincing evidence is that there is another example of this dial, whose movement number is very very close to my watch. Chances are, the two watches are produced within a year of one another. It is certainly possible, though unlikely, that both watches are redialed.

There are several very valuable lesson I learned through this process. Firstly, it is so difficult to claim that a vintage watch is 100% correct and original, as the evidence required to do so is hard to come by. Longines is already very good at keeping records, but that is still not enough to claim with absolute certainty that all aspects of the watch are authentic.

The other lesson I learned is that buying from a European auction is extremely costly. While the hammer price is 2.8k Euros, the price to my door is 4.5k USD.

Lastly, through this purchase, I got to know some very well known watch experts. Perhaps because the watch itself is interesting and controversial enough, these watch experts were super friendly when I reached out to them. Some went out of their way to try to authenticate the watch for me. This is a testament of how great the watch community is in general.

Cheers everyone

 

Do you have good pictures of the other dial to compare side by side with yours?

 

Attached are a few pictures of the "twin". It is in fact the very same watch as the one ModestProposal referred to above. On the movement shot, you can see the serial number of 5765820, which is relatively close to mine 5499917. To my novice eyes, the dials seem identical and are both in fantastic condition. The main difference is the length of the hands, which I've come to appreciate as a quirky feature of my watch.

This twin watch was offered at the June 2009 Antiquorum auction, and was not sold. I sourced the attached pictures from the following TZ post (see the beginning of part 2)
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=msg&goto=4447328&rid=15726

Below are several other examples of 13zn with enamel dial. These links are courtesy of a watch expert who has been instrumental in my learning about the 13zn - thank you!

http://monochrome-watches.com/the-a...hs-breguet-type-20-and-longines-calibre-13zn/
http://home.watchprosite.com/show-f...ndering-a-small-beauty-longines-13-zn-enamel/
http://www.chrono24.com/en/longines/chrono-13-zn-mono-pusher-vintage--id2695911.htm

You'll notice that all of these dials are in amazing condition, given that they are made in the late 30's. They are fascinating.

Happy weekend everyone!

 

Pictures are quite small, but these so-called twin are not identical, as like LarryG said, "the bleeding of the 2/4/8/10 into the chrono sub dials" is quite apparent. Also the chapter rings of the subdials are smaller or farther from the edge on your example. It's likely just a variant or replacement rather than a redial though, as I don't think enamel dial can be refinished. It'd help if you have bigger pictures when it's arrived.

 

Thanks TNT. Could you clarify what "bleeding into" means? I'm still learning many things, thanks!

 

If it helps, here is a close up of the "twin's" dial to compare the degree of bleeding. Thanks!

 

OK, so this picture shows it has the bleeding too, which is the overflow / overprint / overlap of the numerals over the edge of the subdials. Assuming these are real vitreous enamel, I'm pretty sure this is the way they were made, by either Longines or somebody else, but not redialed/refinished. Enamel dials don't really fade, hard to stain, last very long, just prone to crack though.

 

Got it! Yes I see bleeding on both of the chrono subdials. Thanks for that, TNT. I will also take better photos when it comes from Germany.

 

I'm glad it helps. Really love to have one this nice!

 

A further possibility: someone took a 13.33z-enamel-dial and mounted it on this 13zn, because the original metal-dial was gone (redial/bad state).
here´s my 13.33:

Regarding the 3 digits "20", "15" and "10" in the right couter of your dial, i´m not sure if it´s ok. They are printed upside down, but usually on older longines-chronographs-dials they are printed "standing". Only some old (f.e. 4,900.000 - see goldberger) 13.33 or 15" (Longines with valjoux movement) enamel dials has "upside down" digits. In Italy one can buy fake-enamel-dials for 13zn/13.33z; last month, an english seller offered a 13zn equipped with one, but i´m not shure, if it´s allowed to post his pictures here. It was a white "istituto idrografico r. marina" and it was clearly faked. And the digits "20", "15" and "10" in the right couter were printed upside down...curiously the offer has completely vanished.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to point this out. The watch is on its way to Longines Switzerland for authentication and service. I've just shot them an email regarding the right subdial figures; in particular, whether or not some 13zn's feature the inverted 10, 15, 20.

A quick google search found a couple of examples of 13zn's with inverted 10, 15, 20. But I don't have enough knowledge to claim if these are correct or not.

http://home.watchprosite.com/show-f...ndering-a-small-beauty-longines-13-zn-enamel/
http://monochrome-watches.com/the-a...hs-breguet-type-20-and-longines-calibre-13zn/

I will definitely respond back when I hear from Longines. Thanks again.

 

hi,
unfortunately Longines is NOT the right instance to juge, if a 13zn-watch is correct or not. 2 weeks ago i communicated with a (collector-)friend from the US concerning the english "istituto idrografico r. marina" - he wrote to Longines and they answered nonsense and sent pictures of 13.33z-watches.

Your first link: I really don´t know. but if 13zn-watches with with enamel-dials were plausible, they should be not so cheap. i will not state, that they are impossible, but i never saw an authentic one in 30 years collecting 13zn.
your second link: it´s NOT a 13zn, but a longines chronograph equipped with a 15"-valjoux movement from the same era.

rgds - h.u.