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Auction pick-up - Gold Chrono Black Dial

  1. Mazoue Dec 8, 2016

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    I picked this up unexpectedly at auction, having left a relatively modest absentee bid. I feared the worst as I had not seen the watch in person but I am pleasantly surprised now that it has arrived.

    I would welcome thoughts on the dial. I'm aware that black dials purporting to be early are often re-dials. It looks good under a loupe but should I be concerned that it is not marked Compur or Uni-Compax or Swiss?

    The case diameter is 34.5mm and it's 18K gold with all of the appropriate marks on the caseback. I've not yet opened the case to check the movement. The case is in good condition but I don't think the crown is original.

    Is there anything similar in Sala? I must get myself a copy for Christmas.

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  2. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. Dec 8, 2016

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    Any sn or reference? Early 40s / late 30s compur. Possibly custom dial. These fonts do show up in the book. Overall lovely watch.
     
  3. gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Dec 8, 2016

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    The operative words for me are "it's 18K gold with all of the appropriate marks on the caseback". Most of the gold UG chronographs I've seen have hallmarks on the inside of the caseback not the outside. I would think that the outside of the caseback would have just a serial number and model reference number.

    The markings on the caseback, the style of the hands, and the shape of the lugs has me worried that this is not a UG at all. I fear it could be a generic "Chronograph Suisse" type watch with a very thin 18K case and a Landeron 48 movement. These dials were very often left blank so a retailer could put their own name on there.

    We'll need to see a picture of the movement, of course, to be sure.

    I hope I'm wrong on this.
    gatorcpa
     
  4. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. Dec 8, 2016

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    Side shot with crown as well please.
     
  5. Modest_Proposal Trying too hard to be one of the cool kids Dec 8, 2016

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    I believe the dial is redone or a creation. Logo and inking looks off and UG doesn't typically have the telemetre or minute track overlap the subdial.

    Crown and hands look replaced or the dial was blank and printed with "Universal Geneve", as thought of by Gatorcpa. Case might not be original. Need more pics.
     
  6. Mazoue Dec 8, 2016

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    You all beat me to it! Having now removed the caseback, I'm sad to report that things have take a turn for the worse.

    The outside of caseback is marked 18K and 0.750, has the helvetia head and the 128 hammerhead mark denoting a Jung & Cie case. There is also a small stamp mark that I don't recognise.
    The inside of the caseback has perlage but only "2887" stamped and various numbers etched. None of the UG markings I would hope to see.
    There is a dust cover also with perlage and stamped 2887. It is stamped "METAL" and is made of brass I think.
    The movement is very clean but is unsigned.
    There is a hallmark on one of the lugs.

    Since this is presumably not worth the ~£1500 I paid for it then I will attempt to seek a refund from the auction house.

    Despite the case and movement not being UG, I am still not convinced that the dial is not a UG original. If it is a redial then it is very very impressive as it is extremely precise, even when viewed under a loupe, although I appreciate the point made above regarding the telemetre overlapping the subdial.

    Lesson learned.

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  7. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. Dec 8, 2016

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    I am also not convinced the dial is fake. Very clear now that the rest is.
     
  8. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. Dec 8, 2016

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    Sorry you were inconvenienced. There are lots of dials shown in Sala. Not jumping out as out of line.
     
  9. Modest_Proposal Trying too hard to be one of the cool kids Dec 8, 2016

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    I still don't believe it is an original dial. Will wait for further opinions.
     
  10. LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member Dec 8, 2016

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    The marks you don't recognize are owls, French marks for high quality imported 18K cases.
     
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  11. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. Dec 9, 2016

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    So staring at Sala some more, my guess is that this is a Franken (Case/Movement) but with UG Dial and Hands. Correct / Incorrect?
     
  12. Mazoue Dec 9, 2016

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    I still believe that it is a ligitimate UG dial although I suspect we'll never know for certain.

    Apparently it was stated during the sale (at which I was not present) but not in the catalogue that it was not a UG movement. I am pleased to report that the auction house are being very fair and are willing to offer a full refund.
     
  13. 10H10 Dec 9, 2016

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    I'm sceptical,
    1. The printing of the two subdials isn't the same, the left one is thicker
    2. The circle of the right subdial is smaller than the left one.
    3. No Compur or Uni-Compax printed.
    4. Very very large "Universal Genève"
    I think like Modest Proposal, "Universal Genève" was printed afterwards on an anonymous dial.
     
  14. Modest_Proposal Trying too hard to be one of the cool kids Dec 9, 2016

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    It is not necessary for Compur of Uni-Compax or any other designation to have been written on the dial, FYI.
     
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  15. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. Dec 9, 2016

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    Need LouS, Jordn and Diabolik to join the game!
     
  16. jordn Wants to be called Frank for some odd reason Dec 9, 2016

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    There isn't anything expressly dubious about the dial itself, but the minute register is something to take note of. Compurs and Uni-Compaxes all had 45 minute counters (except for lady's caliber 289), but after looking through the archive examples in Sala, I found one example w a different company logo that has a 30 minute counter. The French market case perhaps explains the sketchy looking movement (anyone familiar w this one?) and the minute register, but it is purely conjecture on my part. The pushers and crown are replacement parts, so it definitely isn't an unmolested example.

    Edit: Because of a pm I received, I should clarify what I meant about the minute register. What I said applies only to the compurs and uni-compaxes. I'll change it above
     
    Edited Dec 9, 2016
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  17. Modest_Proposal Trying too hard to be one of the cool kids Dec 9, 2016

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    Are you asking what movement it is? It's a landeron movement of some designation. Certainly nothing Universal Geneve used.
     
  18. gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Dec 9, 2016

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    As I wrote above, I think it is an original (as in not a redial) 1940's dial for a Landeron/Chronographe Suisse watch. The case is consistent with that also. Here are a couple of pictures of my example:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Note that the two sub-dial hands and the chronograph hand are exactly the same shape.

    Someone printed the UG on that black dial with an intent to deceive. Certainly not worth anywhere near £1,500, €1,500 or $1,500.
    gatorcpa
     
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  19. jordn Wants to be called Frank for some odd reason Dec 9, 2016

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    Ah sorry I should have read the thread more thoroughly, but the logo looks good imo (if you meant that the logo wasn't added by UG themselves). I could certainly be wrong, but the font looks good to my eyes and the slight lilt of the L is something one would typically see only on authentic UG dials. The hands, while generic, widely-used ones for the period, are correct for UG compurs as well. I realize UG didn't ever use Landeron movements, but the watch appears to be a pre-40's example - prior to opening of the Pont-de-Martel factory in 1941 - and I've seen some funny business with chronographs made for France, historically a very small market for chronographs. We discussed this watch with a Valjoux 22 some time ago:
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    I'm not sure it really matters in the end, but I just don't want to dismiss the watch for what it isn't
     
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  20. 10H10 Dec 10, 2016

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    Of course I know that :whistling:, but on the same size 192 models shown in the archives, there is just 1 (white) dial with the 6hrs space empty ::book::... So what I ment is, adding these 4 odd particularities, the probability that it is a genuine dial is very low ::yawn::