Auction house potentially made me overbid myself, can I request transparency? ~2000+ euro overpay

kaplan · Apr 6, 2022

Hi,

My question is for the experienced members of our forum who participate in auction house auctions, can you request information about competing bids?

My issue is:
- I called the auction house, asked whether online bids are max bids or direct bids, they confirmed they are max bids and only materialize if there is competition
- I placed a 3,500 euro max bid via email on a watch, it's a C-Case Constellation
- It's confirmed
- A week after, one day before the auction, this Monday, I got worried my bid could just be at the edge of logical limits and I'm very illogically passionate, sent another email that explicitly asked whether it's possible to update my 3,500 euro max bid to 4,100 euros max, I explicitly asked this because I suspected if not done carefully, they could've entered a new bid for 4,100 euros, which would compete with my existing 3,500 euro max bid
- My email received a confirmation reply

Auction day comes, yesterday evening I check the results and it's 3,500 euros, a nightmare, the estimate was 1,500-2,000 euros and past sales are around that much, keep in mind that the seller premium is 33% and the 3,500 euros will convert to $5,000 - Past auctions concluded around the estimate as well, I personally bid 2X market values for watches I care about, but in the past I only once met competition, usually non-collectors compete as they can go over market values but collectors usually don't

- I sent an email to the auction house, clearly and simply asking whether I was made to compete against my own bid
- They avoided my question and gave a short answer and stated I won the auction and will be getting an invoice soon
- I sent another email to inquire, I'm just asking for confirmation of competition and no details about competition, but at this point I'm creating this thread to ask about your experiences too

I haven't shared the auction/house to not defame them, as I can't be sure what happened, and there lies my problem, I want to be sure

Auction was in EU / France if that matters in terms of transparency, maybe there's a law regarding auctions / competition I don't know about

Thanks,
Kaan

Sharp · Apr 6, 2022

It is possible I guess, but seems rather unlikely, if your bid of 3500 was competing with your other bid of 4100, surely you would have paid 3750 hammer - one bid interval over your original bid?

It would be strange for two bids from the same person to appear on the books twice under two different unique bidder ID numbers, just to confirm did you fill in two bid forms in full, or only ask for the adjustment via the email used to submit your original bid?

Have you got a picture of the watch? 3500 might not be that bad!

kaplan · Apr 6, 2022

Yeah that makes sense, and it eased my mind a bit, thank you for that, this is my second auction, and on my first auction I managed to pay exactly my bid too, so similarly maybe 3250 euros was the competition and my 3500 was just enough to overcome it after all, but also maybe 2 competing pre-placed phone bids don't hammer up

They were both registered as phone bids over the email, their website was throwing an error so I had to bid by email, and my update was on the same email chain as well

But generally speaking, I want to see what happened on auctions of this nature, they didn't publish any bids and no reply yet, considering the 33% premium a bit of a lackluster for me

The watch is quite beautiful and in my opinion worth a lot more than the $5000 final price, I'll share some pictures when I get it, but if I tried to sell it, I'd maybe wait a year to find a buyer even at $3500 - which had me surprised because when I look at past auctions for C-Case's, they go way below market value rather than exceed it

watchyouwant · Apr 6, 2022

Auction houses live from the premiums. If one bidder places 2 bids on the same item, they are happy. Because now they know, they get over 30% securely from the first bid. Courtesy is something, many don't even know how to spell these days. Next time: retract the first bid with confirmation from the auction house. Then place your higher bid. Don't rely on their honesty.

bombaywalla · Apr 6, 2022

kaplan
Hi,

My question is for the experienced members of our forum who participate in auction house auctions, can you request information about competing bids?

My issue is:
- I called the auction house, asked whether online bids are max bids or direct bids, they confirmed they are max bids and only materialize if there is competition
- I placed a 3,500 euro max bid via email on a watch, it's a C-Case Constellation
- It's confirmed
- A week after, one day before the auction, this Monday, I got worried my bid could just be at the edge of logical limits and I'm very illogically passionate, sent another email that explicitly asked whether it's possible to update my 3,500 euro max bid to 4,100 euros max, I explicitly asked this because I suspected if not done carefully, they could've entered a new bid for 4,100 euros, which would compete with my existing 3,500 euro max bid
- My email received a confirmation reply

Auction day comes, yesterday evening I check the results and it's 3,500 euros, a nightmare, the estimate was 1,500-2,000 euros and past sales are around that much, keep in mind that the seller premium is 33% and the 3,500 euros will convert to $5,000 - Past auctions concluded around the estimate as well, I personally bid 2X market values for watches I care about, but in the past I only once met competition, usually non-collectors compete as they can go over market values but collectors usually don't

- I sent an email to the auction house, clearly and simply asking whether I was made to compete against my own bid
- They avoided my question and gave a short answer and stated I won the auction and will be getting an invoice soon
- I sent another email to inquire, I'm just asking for confirmation of competition and no details about competition, but at this point I'm creating this thread to ask about your experiences too

I haven't shared the auction/house to not defame them, as I can't be sure what happened, and there lies my problem, I want to be sure

Auction was in EU / France if that matters in terms of transparency, maybe there's a law regarding auctions / competition I don't know about

Thanks,
Kaan

Was there no way for you to know past history of similar watches sold from this auction house before you submitted your first bid?

if no data from this particular auction house then there is surely the internet to tell you the going price such that you don’t overbid.

Your post appears that you didn’t do any of this work before bidding….

kaplan · Apr 6, 2022

bombaywalla
Was there no way for you to know past history of similar watches sold from this auction house before you submitted your first bid?

if no data from this particular auction house then there is surely the internet to tell you the going price such that you don’t overbid.

Your post appears that you didn’t do any of this work before bidding….

Not really contributing anything 👎

MtV · Apr 6, 2022

bombaywalla
Was there no way for you to know past history of similar watches sold from this auction house before you submitted your first bid?

if no data from this particular auction house then there is surely the internet to tell you the going price such that you don’t overbid.

Your post appears that you didn’t do any of this work before bidding….

You might have noticed he said C-shape and mentioned a price of ~5k$ all-in. That might hint at the rarity of the watch in question and the rarer the item, the less predictable prices are.

cvalue13 · Apr 6, 2022

kaplan
Auction day comes, yesterday evening I check the results and it's 3,500 euros, a nightmare, the estimate was 1,500-2,000 euros and past sales are around that much,

huh?

a nightmare that your bid was realized?

kaplan · Apr 6, 2022

If it was 3,400 or 3,600 I wouldn’t mind but exactly being 3,500 made me worry

Nupero · Apr 6, 2022

cvalue13
huh?

a nightmare that your bid was realized?

We've all been there 😁

Evitzee · Apr 6, 2022

Every auction is unique, no way to predict what may happen to any particular lot on any particular day. That's the beauty, or nightmare, of the auction process. For buyer and seller.

bombaywalla · Apr 6, 2022

kaplan
Not really contributing anything 👎

Well, what I was hinting at here was -- do your homework before bidding & avoid getting screwed rather than posting here for "advice" or sympathy....
(didnt want to be blunt but you didnt get the hint from my earlier post.... 😵‍💫)

Wryfox · Apr 6, 2022

I think your first problem was doing business with a firm that charges 33% premium....

Eve · Apr 6, 2022

cvalue13
huh?

a nightmare that your bid was realized?

imagine it would have been sold for EUR 4100,- 😲

AAAKK · Apr 6, 2022

If both your bids were competing against each other, it would've ended up at 3600 or whatever the next increment after 3500 was.

Davidt · Apr 6, 2022

Wryfox
I think your first problem was doing business with a firm that charges 33% premium....

That would exclude pretty much every single auction house that sells vintage watches (in the UK at least).

cristos71 · Apr 6, 2022

Auctioneers bid against the room all the time, it’s a known trick to reach reserve or bump a commission bid. That is the risk you run with a commission email bid, you cannot see what is going on and are reliant on the honesty of the auctioneer.

Evitzee · Apr 6, 2022

Wryfox
I think your first problem was doing business with a firm that charges 33% premium....

Even the big guys are charging 25% to 30% premium for the buyer, that's the cost of buying via an auction.

kaplan · Apr 6, 2022

bombaywalla
Well, what I was hinting at here was -- do your homework before bidding & avoid getting screwed rather than posting here for "advice" or sympathy....
(didnt want to be blunt but you didnt get the hint from my earlier post.... 😵‍💫)

No need to blame the victim try using some empathy, I pity people around you how hard it must be for them to be constantly interacting with someone like you - seriously consider my feedback as it might improve your relations

This is something that can affect any of us

watchyouwant
Auction houses live from the premiums. If one bidder places 2 bids on the same item, they are happy. Because now they know, they get over 30% securely from the first bid. Courtesy is something, many don't even know how to spell these days. Next time: retract the first bid with confirmation from the auction house. Then place your higher bid. Don't rely on their honesty.

Worrying to hear about how auction houses can knowingly make you overbid yourself

If this ends up being the case I’ll probably pay and sue later on - in hindsight explicitly retracting the bid and receiving confirmation should be the way to go now

This is not a prime time auction house but quite established and it wasn’t a small auction, at least this is/was my perception

kaplan · Apr 6, 2022

cristos71
Auctioneers bid against the room all the time, it’s a known trick to reach reserve or bump a commission bid. That is the risk you run with a commission email bid, you cannot see what is going on and are reliant on the honesty of the auctioneer.

Live and learn I guess, quite an expensive lesson this time