Are members invested in Bitcoin/crypto?

Archer · Mar 14, 2021

Spacefruit
Ok.

Try giving a 250,000 dollar house to you children.

try giving $30,000 to your girlfriend.

try taking $20,000 out of the bank in cash.

You think it’s your money but it’s not.

and yes you might owe the government money. But was it a fair judgement?

you can allow yourself to be side tracked by the size of the numbers, but remember the numbers will come down. And look at the principle behind, rather than think it’s a rich persons problem.

It’s going to be everyone’s problem

as to the electrical costs of crypto, compare it to the costs of running the Visa network.

Well, I've never done any of the things you listed there, and the only one that would be remotely plausible for me is withdrawing cash to pay for a watch I bought. I understand that there would be questions asked if I did, and I have no issues with it personally. You do - you've made that clear a few times. You clearly have a lot more experience dealing with large amounts of funds than I do.

"Notice how the uber rich are even more uber rich"

Indeed. How does crypto address this? It seems the uber rich are getting more uber rich using crypto, so it's unclear to me what the point of that comment really is.

As for the judgement in the case, are you saying it wasn't just? Have you looked into the circumstances of the case in any detail?

If it was just, is that still a concern for you? Should the government be able to go after people for money if it's legitimately owed?

Personally I tend to take the approach that if there is over-reach, deal with that, rather than start a completely new system, but hey what do I know...

Observer · Mar 14, 2021

The uber-rich are getting richer through exclusive access to extremely low interest rate loans that the rest of us don’t have access to because we aren’t hooked up with the legacy banking system like they are. Crypto has made access to uber-riches available to everyone. Leveled the playing field a bit, and that’s all the fairness we need or deserve.

Crypto gives everyone the same 8% yield on US dollars, regardless of account balance. In fact, larger BTC deposits receive a lower rate of return on Blockfi. Not sure about other crypto institutions. If you prefer decentralized finance (defi), the deals are still the same, regardless of the amount, other than the fact that fees represent a larger cut of small transactions and larger transactions move markets.

321Only · Mar 14, 2021

Spacefruit
I think everyone is missing the point. Bitcoin is not an investment, its a whole new system.

.....

All fiat currencies fail in the end.

Amen.

321Only · Mar 14, 2021

In the meantime 1.8 trillion fresh printed € in the euro system. That’s roughly a 25% increase of the current supply.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/11/ecb-decision-meeting-march-2021-rates-.html

Dan S · Mar 14, 2021

Spacefruit
I think everyone is missing the point. Bitcoin is not an investment, its a whole new system.

I very much appreciate this sentiment, and the potential value of a currency independent of any particular government or state. And I agree that was probably the intent of the founder. But the founder doesn't get to choose how it is used, and neither do you and I. It has a life of its own.

At the moment, it's apparent that the value of BTC relative to any other given asset/currency is largely being determined by people who view it as a speculative investment or a repository of wealth, or whatever people want to call it. Sadly, the resulting volatility decreases its utility (and broad acceptance) as a currency.

The path forward to stabilization is not currently clear to me. More stability is needed for it to become widely used for transactions, but wide use in transactions is probably needed for greater stability.

321Only · Mar 14, 2021

Dan S
I very much appreciate this sentiment, and the potential value of a currency independent of any particular government or state. And I agree that was probably the intent of the founder. But the founder doesn't get to choose how it is used, and neither do you and I. It has a life of its own.

At the moment, it's apparent that the value of BTC relative to any other given asset/currency is largely being determined by people who view it as a speculative investment or a repository of wealth, or whatever people want to call it. Sadly, the resulting volatility decreases its utility (and broad acceptance) as a currency.

The path forward to stabilization is not currently clear to me. More stability is needed for it to become widely used for transactions, but wide use in transactions is probably needed for greater stability.

I don't understand the discussions around volatility in bitcoin, no ones seems to care about volatility of gold or silver.

Dan S · Mar 14, 2021

321Only
I don't understand the discussions around volatility in bitcoin, no ones seems to care about volatility of gold or silver.

Yeah, I guess that's what I was referring to with respect to the distinction between currency vs. repository of wealth. Obviously, this is all extensively discussed in the media. And TBH the relative volatilities of BTC vs PMs are qualitatively different (BTC fluctuations are at least an order of magnitude greater), although that isn't the main point I was making so I hope we don't get hung up on that issue.

Observer · Mar 14, 2021

Bitcoin is still in price discovery mode. Its volatility shouldn’t surprise anyone. It would be a bad idea to allocate large amounts of capital, but allocating zero to it seems unwise as well.

You snooze, you lose.

321Only · Mar 14, 2021

Archer
Well, I've never done any of the things you listed there, and the only one that would be remotely plausible for me is withdrawing cash to pay for a watch I bought. I understand that there would be questions asked if I did, and I have no issues with it personally. You do - you've made that clear a few times. You clearly have a lot more experience dealing with large amounts of funds than I do.

"Notice how the uber rich are even more uber rich"

Indeed. How does crypto address this? It seems the uber rich are getting more uber rich using crypto, so it's unclear to me what the point of that comment really is.

As for the judgement in the case, are you saying it wasn't just? Have you looked into the circumstances of the case in any detail?

If it was just, is that still a concern for you? Should the government be able to go after people for money if it's legitimately owed?

Personally I tend to take the approach that if there is over-reach, deal with that, rather than start a completely new system, but hey what do I know...

Just wait until negative interest rates are applied to your bank account. It's happening in Europe.

Walrus · Mar 14, 2021

Observer
Bitcoin is still in price discovery mode. Its volatility shouldn’t surprise anyone. It would be a bad idea to allocate large amounts of capital, but allocating zero to it seems unwise as well.

You snooze, you lose.

Unless you want to yolo, but that’s a song for another day (I’m not a supporter of the yolo technique)

Bugbait · Mar 15, 2021

Spacefruit
Ok.

Try giving a 250,000 dollar house to you children.

try giving $30,000 to your girlfriend.

try taking $20,000 out of the bank in cash.

You think it’s your money but it’s not.

and yes you might owe the government money. But was it a fair judgement?

you can allow yourself to be side tracked by the size of the numbers, but remember the numbers will come down. And look at the principle behind, rather than think it’s a rich persons problem.

It’s going to be everyone’s problem

as to the electrical costs of crypto, compare it to the costs of running the Visa network.

The same people screaming about having their liberties "taken" from them by their government are likely the same that will go screaming to anyone that will listen when someone steals from them or they can't get medical treatment they "deserve".

It's called "entitlement". I want access to services and protection from the government but don't want to live by their rules or pay their taxes that fund the very things I want. Sure, that works...

Not sure if the tone of some here is simply self serving or ignorant. As someone who has worked in anti-financial crime for many years I have some insight into the need for the controls and regulation imposed by various governments. There are many flaws but at least it's better than not having anything in place.

Observer · Mar 15, 2021

Bugbait
The same people screaming about having their liberties "taken" from them by their government are likely the same that will go screaming to anyone that will listen when someone steals from them or they can't get medical treatment they "deserve".

It's called "entitlement". I want access to services and protection from the government but don't want to live by their rules or pay their taxes that fund the very things I want. Sure, that works...

Not sure if the tone of some here is simply self serving or ignorant. As someone who has worked in anti-financial crime for many years I have some insight into the need for the controls and regulation imposed by various governments. There are many flaws but at least it's better than not having anything in place.

The thing is, we need protection from the financial crimes committed by your beloved government. The people in your crosshairs are nothing in comparison.

Bugbait · Mar 15, 2021

Observer
The thing is, we need protection from the financial crimes committed by your beloved government. The people in your crosshairs are nothing in comparison.

Firstly, let's not put words in my mouth, it's not "my beloved government". Government is far from perfect but again, I still prefer something that we can try to improve upon versus nothing at all.

You think decentralised objects is the solution? Maybe to a very small part at best. If I wanted to try to fix the problems with my government I would be in politics. My laziness affords me a single vote, that's about it. At least I get a vote in country I guess.

Does anyone here really think any major financial institutions are pouring money into cryptocurrencies because they believe in them? The single motivation of any financial institution (and most companies really) is to profit, period. They don't care what they're buying into so as long as they think they will make lots of money from it.

Archer · Mar 15, 2021

321Only
Just wait until negative interest rates are applied to your bank account. It's happening in Europe.

Do people keep a lot of money in bank accounts? I don't, personally...

Observer · Mar 15, 2021

Archer
Do people keep a lot of money in bank accounts? I don't, personally...

Where do you keep significant amounts of cash? I used to store it in treasuries, but there’s no point anymore.

Shabbaz · Mar 15, 2021

I see some pessimistic views about governments. I wonder what happened in the past to feel this way. For 17 years I've fought the government as a lawyer in various courts in the Netherlands. I have reasons to be cynical. However, I still believe a democracy with control mechanism is the best option. We still have reasonable judges to control the government in the event your money is beeing taken. And I still believe the government will do his best to make sure I'm safe, make sure my kids can go to a good school, make sure my property is beeing protected and will take care of me and my loved ones when we're sick. And I'm thinking of the dutch government right now. Of course I know there are governments in the world with a different view on things.

Observer · Mar 15, 2021

Bugbait
Firstly, let's not put words in my mouth, it's not "my beloved government". Government is far from perfect but again, I still prefer something that we can try to improve upon versus nothing at all.

You think decentralised objects is the solution? Maybe to a very small part at best. If I wanted to try to fix the problems with my government I would be in politics. My laziness affords me a single vote, that's about it. At least I get a vote in country I guess.

Does anyone here really think any major financial institutions are pouring money into cryptocurrencies because they believe in them? The single motivation of any financial institution (and most companies really) is to profit, period. They don't care what they're buying into so as long as they think they will make lots of money from it.

Sorry for putting words in your mouth. I felt the content of your first paragraph gave me license for some mind reading of my own.

Decentralization is great, but the truly important factor is trustlessness.

I do think that financial institutions believe in crypto. That’s why every major central bank is busy creating their own.

Archer · Mar 15, 2021

Observer
Where do you keep significant amounts of cash? I used to store it in treasuries, but there’s no point anymore.

I don't give financial advice, so best to talk to someone who does that for a living.

Bugbait · Mar 15, 2021

Observer
I do think that financial institutions believe in crypto. That’s why every major central bank is busy creating their own.

Yes, but their motivation is profit. They don't care what it represents and would fund their own fruit farms if that's what customers wanted and it made them money. Not saying there's anything wrong with that but I don't need to layer it with any upselling. I've worked at multiple international banks, predominantly in the Compliance and Anti-Financial Crime departments since 2006 so I'm not disillusioned by their motives.

eugeneandresson · Mar 15, 2021

Shabbaz
I still believe a democracy with control mechanism is the best option.

True... but a direct democracy ... not the half-baked thing that is prevalent in 95% of the world (aka 'representative democracy'). I abhor politics (especially on watch forums) and the only reason I chip in and mention this is because I believe the majority of people who live in a 'democracy' don't know what a true democracy is (i.e. the ability for the populous to decide on or overrule policy usually decided by the government) or how much more power the population has... anyhoo...just another 2c worthless opinion 😉