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  1. AmateurMit Mar 7, 2020

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    1CC06D00-AB5B-4E67-8E96-6A1347A6C9BF.jpeg
  2. killer67 Mar 7, 2020

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    Worth some research before you bid. Audemars Piguet font is strange and so close together as well as the thicker font roman numerals. If I’m not mistaken the no seconds hand cal K2001 was only made through the late 70s. Keep in mind that it’s a smaller case 32-33mm and worth $2500-$3000 as a correct watch and if strap is correct (which it isn’t )
     
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  3. AmateurMit Mar 7, 2020

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    unfortunately I lost myself in a moment of excitement and currently hold the $2000 bid. I also worry that the 2001 cal is not right for this period.

    is Sotheby’s allowed to sell this watch if the dial is indeed fake? I should have done more research but trusted the reputation of Sotheby’s. thanks for your help!
     
  4. killer67 Mar 7, 2020

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    They are generally sold “as is” and they do not guarantee the authenticity or accuracy of their description or condition of their consigned items because if they did, their return rate would be rampant.
     
  5. Evitzee Mar 7, 2020

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    The movement number of 99636 is a 1966 production according to the AUDEMARS PIGUET book by Gisbert Brunner. I never trust auction house dates, they are often nothing but a guess by underlings doing the catalogue writeups. The dial signature does look a bit unbalanced, but the numerals look right. A watch this old most likely will need some work to get it running correctly, if parts need to be replaced it can become an expensive exercise. AP can always do the work but they don't come cheap. The buyer is responsible for due diligence, unless it is an outright fake you won't have any recourse if you win the item.

    Here is the condition report from Sotheby's, and terms:

    Condition Report
    CASE

    Face of bezel and lugs with cross hatching pattern. Case in good overall condition with light wear. Case back with some light scratches. A horizontal area of pitting in the center of the case back.

    Please note that the associated steel buckle is not branded. A generic strap is applied to the watch.

    DIAL

    Dial in good condition with light surface wear.

    MOVEMENT

    The movement is running at time of cataloging, however it was not tested for the accuracy of time or duration of the power reserve and may need service at the buyer's discretion. Please note that Sotheby's does not guarantee the future working of the movement.


    The lot is sold in the condition it is in at the time of sale. The online condition report is provided to assist you with assessing the condition of the lot and is for guidance purposes only. The images of the lot also form part of the online condition report for the lot provided by Sotheby's. Any reference to condition in the online condition report does not amount to a full description of condition. The online condition report may make reference to particular imperfections of the lot but you should note that the lot may have other faults not expressly referred to in the online condition report of the lot or shown in the online images of the lot (for example, the online condition report may not specify mechanical replacements or imperfections to the movement, case, dial, pendulum, separate base(s) or dome). Watches in water-resistant cases have been opened to examine movements but no warranties are made that the watches are currently water-resistant. The online condition report may not refer to all faults, restoration, alteration or adaptation because Sotheby's is not a professional conservator or restorer but rather the online condition report is a statement of subjective, qualified opinion genuinely held by Sotheby's (for example, information regarding colour, clarity and weight of gemstones are statements of opinion only and not statements of fact by Sotheby's). Please also note that we do not guarantee the authenticity of any individual component parts, such as wheels, hands, crowns, crystals, screws, bracelets and wrist bands, since subsequent repairs and restoration work may have resulted in the replacement of original parts. In addition, certain images of the lot provided online may not accurately reflect the actual condition of the lot (for example, the online images may represent colours and shades which are different to the lot's actual colour and shades). For these reasons, the online condition report is not an alternative to taking your own professional advice regarding the condition of the lot. Prospective buyers should also refer to the Buying at Auction guide which includes important notices concerning the type of property in this sale. In particular, please note it is the purchaser's responsibility to comply with any applicable import and export matters, particularly in relation to lots incorporating materials from endangered species. Please be advised that wristbands made of materials derived from endangered or otherwise protected species (i.e. alligator and crocodile) are not sold with the watches and are for display purposes only. We reserve the right to remove these bands prior to shipping. NOTWITHSTANDING THIS ONLINE CONDITION REPORT OR ANY DISCUSSIONS CONCERNING A LOT, ALL LOTS ARE OFFERED AND SOLD "AS IS" IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE CONDITIONS OF BUSINESS (ONLINE ONLY).
     
    Edited Mar 7, 2020
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  6. AmateurMit Mar 7, 2020

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    Well certainly an amateur move on my end then!
    Wonderful! I would have never known such a book existed.
    Given the 1966 dating, and the correct looking numerals, would you say that the signature is also authentic but perhaps just in poor angle in the photo?

    moreover, do you have any opinion on the crosshatched case?

    I’ve been searching deep into the web, but have been unable to find the same Roman numerals or cross hatched case...in particular I cannot find an example with such bolded Roman numerals
     
    Edited Mar 7, 2020
  7. Evitzee Mar 7, 2020

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    I've seen crosshatched case work on AP's in this period so it could be factory done. Hard to say on the signature, I'm looking at their larger pic on their website and it isn't an odd angle so the spacing is a bit big but it still could still be original. Too bad they don't show a movement pic.
     
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  8. AmateurMit Mar 7, 2020

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    Thanks for the advice! It’s greatly appreciated. Do you know of examples with a similar bolding of the Roman numerals? The examples I can find have much thinner Roman numerals
     
  9. cvalue13 Mar 8, 2020

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    I’m by no means an expert with mid-century AP dress watches, but doesn’t it seem like the spacing is more consistent with the ‘Genève’ dials that during this period had a comma between ‘Audemars’ and ‘Piguet’ - except this one lacking the comma that justifies the space?

    Just in case not known, a bit of nuance here around the notion of “fake.”

    For most of recent history and to most purchases of watches, it was not uncommon for dials to be “restored.” Craftsmen did these restorations on the request of and at times as usual course in freshening up a watch. Average Joe in New Jersey had a nice watch showing its age, and wanted not only the movement to be serviced but finally also the watch to look “good as new.” To the average consumer, this was perhaps normal course and they liked the look of the watch better once it was “restored.”

    Contrast that mentality to the one you’ll find on forums like this, where collectors want a watch as it left the factory. They’d most like a pristine watch just as it was when left the factory, or as close to that as possible - or, especially for some tool watches, one that still has not been touched but looks pretty rough to the average eye. To these collectors, a “refinished” dial is pretty far down the desirability scale (and so the valuation); many would never buy one, if only because they’d reserve those funds for another watch.

    A similar dynamic can be seen when it comes to “polishing” a watch: many average consumers may not mind but even prefer a watch that has been polished because to them it seems to “freshen up” the watch; collectors see it quite the opposite, in terms of collectibility.

    So two points falling out of the above;

    First, bare in mind there is a difference (around here) between “fake” in the colloquial sense that you might be using it, vs a watch with a “restored” or “refinished” dial. To over-simplify the matter, a “restored” watch (frowned upon around here among collectors) may be a watch with an AP case and movement and hardware of the dial, but having been polished (as many consumers did/wanted), with some AP service parts in the movement (as many such watches needed over the years), and with a “refinished” dial (also as many consumers did/wanted, over the years). It’s a ‘67 mustang, but with non-original (but nice) paint, a new stereo, and an aftermarket exhaust. Plenty of today’s consumers may still find that ‘67 mustang to be plenty Ford for their purposes (for the right cost).

    Contrast that with something being sold as a ‘67 mustang that had entirely (or largely) never seen the inside of a Ford factory, and was essentially cobbled out of parts made by a family in Taiwan, but attempting to be sold as factory original.

    Second, perhaps unlike with the auto analogy, there tends to be both (A) a wider delta in watch prices between a watch with a new paint job and one still with its factory original paint, and (B) potentially and equally wider delta between what today’s average consumer may want out of a vintage watch and what the average collector around here is looking for.

    So, maybe bare these (over simplified) points in mind as you consider what you are or not the high bidder on, and whether you do or do not care about in your watch selection. It may be you find that for your purposes a ‘67 mustang with a new paint job and a replaced exhaust is just fine (assuming it’s for the right price) - especially if it turns out you discover that a ‘67 mustang barn find with perfect factory paint is way more expensive and precious than you want for purposes of having for a drive to the beach regularly.

    Now, I’m not here taking the position on what’s what with this specific watch. Instead, just that as you try to determine what’s what the above side rails may help you determine what you do or don’t care about, and how much you will or won’t feel you’ve paid.

    Or, you may have decided you are bitten with the collecting bug, and you’re going to regret this specific piece not being factory fresh. In which case, I have last potentially mitigating point for you: that happens to everyone starting out, is fairly described as the noob tax, and whatever you may have (or will) overpay for the first few missteps will be worth the price for the experiential education it provides you.

    At the end of the day, if this is a merely “refinished” dial, then you’re at worst potentially somewhat overpaying (not being scammed) for a watch that 99% of the world will never have a clue is not factory fresh (and is in fact in the stare many average customers throughout time have paid money to have as a result).
     
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  10. AmateurMit Mar 8, 2020

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    Well said!
     
  11. killer67 Mar 11, 2020

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    Annnnnd it sold for $4000
     
  12. Evitzee Mar 11, 2020

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  13. killer67 Mar 11, 2020

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  14. Evitzee Mar 11, 2020

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    Only takes two bidders to set the instantaneous market price. That's why an auction can bring good results if the reserve price and venue is set knowledgeably. I've had good luck with auctions over the years.

    Many potential sellers shy away from auctions because of the premiums, insurance and cataloguing fees, but the seller would not have been able to net as much money for this lot if he had tried to sell it as a WTB item on a forum such as this.
     
  15. killer67 Mar 11, 2020

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    Some pieces like this bring very good number that wouldn’t happen on the market
    Don’t forget about 7 months process start to finish. That’s the big one for me but I understand the reasons why it takes this long