An unusual Tavannes (Cyma) caliber 364 movement

[Canuck]

A discussion in another thread in this forum touched on the subject of subsidiary seconds hands, and whether they provided mechanical benefits over watches with sweep seconds hands. This thread brought to mind a watch I have in my collection that is vey unusual. This watch has a Tavannes (Cyma) caliber 364 movement in it. Unusual, because instead of the usual five train wheels, it has six train wheels.

1- Mainspring barrel (first wheel).
2- Centre wheel (on this watch the centre, or second wheel is off centre, and turns counter-clockwise).
3- Third wheel.
4- Fourth wheel.
5- Fifth wheel (on this watch, the fifth wheel carries the sub seconds hand, and that is unusual).
6- The escape wheel. (On 99% of manual wind watches, the escape wheel is the fifth wheel).

Typically, the centre wheel on most watches (the second wheel) is in the middle of the watch. It turns clockwise, turns once per hour, and it carries the minute hand. On this watch, the centre wheel is off centre,and it turns counter-clockwise, so it cannot carry the minute hand. In order to have the hour and minute hands in the middle of the dial where they belong, the hands are driven by an idler pinion which runs off the second wheel. No advantage or disadvantage. Just unusual.

 

[Syrte]

That movement looks beautiful, now we want to see the face 😜

 

[Canuck]

The face looks about as good as any average watch from 1933 that was a daily driver on the wrist of its first owner for its first 25 years. Then 20 more years on the wrist of its second owner. The nine Karat (English) case suffered greatly when a large dog chewed on it when it thought it was a candy. It was after that when the watch was given to me. I'll post a picture on Saturday, but you won't likely be impressed. That is, unless you particularly like "survivors". Only thing not original is the crystal and strap. I'll post pictures tomorrow.

Here is the business side of the Tavannes. The dial is marked as a private label for British retailer J W Benson. The soft 9-karat case still shows vestiges of the tooth marks as administered by the second owner's large Samoyed dog who mistook the watch for the gold foil wrapped candies it loved so much.

Edited: Sep 16, 2017

 

[Peak_Poster]

I too have one of these Cyma 364 movement in a J W Benson gold case. My version of the case is more rectangular, but the face characters are similar although arranged in a rectangular shape to match the case shape. I think the font style was unique to Benson as I have not been able to find anything like it with an extensive online search. The watch I have belonged to my father-in-law who may have had it as a 21st birthday gift. That would make ot a 1933 watch. The movement I have is not a good cosmetically as your example. The baseplate and bridges are not plated, and have some tarnishing. I have just fitted a new balance assembly (genuine Cyma!) and the watch is timing at +2 minutes a day on the bench. I don’t expect better than this. Good to know that there are others who value the quality and uniqueness of these old watches.

 

[Canuck]

P Peak_Poster

I too have one of these Cyma 364 movement in a J W Benson gold case. My version of the case is more rectangular, but the face characters are similar although arranged in a rectangular shape to match the case shape. I think the font style was unique to Benson as I have not been able to find anything like it with an extensive online search. The watch I have belonged to my father-in-law who may have had it as a 21st birthday gift. That would make ot a 1933 watch. The movement I have is not a good cosmetically as your example. The baseplate and bridges are not plated, and have some tarnishing. I have just fitted a new balance assembly (genuine Cyma!) and the watch is timing at +2 minutes a day on the bench. I don’t expect better than this. Good to know that there are others who value the quality and uniqueness of these old watches.

On this model of Tavannes, you will se the barrel and FIVE train wheels, not the usual four train wheels you’d expect to see. You will also notice TWO crown wheels which turn the ratchet wheel! This is because, with the extra train wheel, the mainspring is wound into the mainspring barrel sdrawkcab! And the FIFTH wheel on this watch would normally carry the seconds hand, just like the FOURTH wheel on most similar watches. Problem! The fifth wheel on this movement turns the wrong way! So an additional idler pinion was added to this movement, which is run by the fifth wheel. This idler pinion allows the seconds hand to move further down toward the 6, and to turn clockwise! I wonder what the movement designer had in mind! A W K W A R D!

 

[François Pépin]

Thanks Canuck for this review! I did it know that caliber.

I wonder why someone thought of this construction. Maybe the fifth wheel has been added in order to place the second wheel off center, which permits a larger balance wheel - as in the Zenith cal 135? If that is not the reason, I wonder why adding a train wheel, which means more frictions.

But maybe the reason is, as with some not really useful complications: we did it because it was possible!

 

[Canuck]

François Pépin

Thanks Canuck for this review! I did it know that caliber.

I wonder why someone thought of this construction. Maybe the fifth wheel has been added in order to place the second wheel off center, which permits a larger balance wheel - as in the Zenith cal 135? If that is not the reason, I wonder why adding a train wheel, which means more frictions.

But maybe the reason is, as with some not really useful complications: we did it because it was possible!

One thing I neglected to mention about this Tavannes, is that the second wheel (normally called the CENTRE wheel on most traditional design movements), is not in the CENTRE! This means the front arbor on the second wheel is stubby, and has the cannon pinion on it. Adjacent to that cannon pinion is an idler post staked to the pillar plate in the CENTRE where the centre wheel would be. The actual cannon pinion runs on the idler post, and it carries the minute hand, and hour wheel! This all works because the second wheel (aka centre wheel) turns counter clockwise! As you mention, this design allows a larger diameter balance wheel. I am unable to see ANY other advantage to such a weird layout! These are remarkable features only to watchmakers as a rule.

 

[rendo]

Reviving this thread to add my Tavannes tank that I recently purchased on OF and serviced right away. Mine has the 365K movement with 17 jewels and a cool looking shock absorber on the balance wheel.









The amplitude could be overstated on the timegrapher because I couldn't find the lift angle for this movement. I reduced the beat error after a few adjustments on the collet, but I thought it was good enough around 1.5.

 

[Canuck]

The Tavannes I showed in the opening post in this thread was given to me by its owner, circa 1985. His family had bought a Rolex for him, from me. The Tavannes was broken, the family didn’t want it, and since it had belonged to his father, he thought of me when it needed a new home. I fixed it up and wore it occasionally.

I remembered his name. He and his son shared the first name. The father passed away about 10 years ago. It occurred to me that, if I was able to contact the son, he might like to have his father’s/grandfather’s watch back. I took a chance on a listing in the phone book, and it WAS the son! I explained who I was and told him of the watch. I asked him if he would like to have it! He said he would! So the Tavannes is no longer part of my collection. I hope he enjoys it.

 

[rendo]

That’s a great story. I have no way of finding the origins of this watch just with initials and a year:

 

[Canuck]

I didn’t tell the whole story! At the time the Tavannes was given to me, the fellow also gave me an Accutron 214 from about 1965. When the Tavannes quit, he bought the Accutron. When the family bought him the Rolex, he quit wearing the Accutron. When he gave me the Tavannes, he also gave me the Accutron in the picture. I also gave the Accutron to the son. It was a dam nice Accutron. Hope he can put his Rado aside, and wear perhaps his father’s Rolex or Accutron, or his father’s/grandfather’s Tavannes (from 1933).