- Posts
- 783
- Likes
- 471
mozambique
·I agree that the 002 dial has some marks that could not occur behind the crystal. However I find the grey washed out appearance more attractive than choc
Am I missing something here, $16,000 Omega 105.003-64 on Ebay???
- Posts
- 5,316
- Likes
- 24,323
Spacefruit
··Prolific Speedmaster HoarderHaving spent a little time looking at the 002, the appearance does not match the sellers description of this watches history, in that I do not see how a watch can sit around in a drawer for 50 years and end up looking like this. Unless it spent much of the time without a crystal, which is quite plausible.
It's a new crystal, and the silver rehaut is covering the SWISS MADE marking. The hands look original to the period but I am not convinced they started off on this watch.
This watch smells to me of a put together. Either by the seller, or "many years ago" before the owner "put it in a drawer".
The "sympathetic" service involved replacing only one pusher. Personally I do both or none as I don't like the look of one old and one new.
I am afraid I don't believe most of what this seller says.
It's a new crystal, and the silver rehaut is covering the SWISS MADE marking. The hands look original to the period but I am not convinced they started off on this watch.
This watch smells to me of a put together. Either by the seller, or "many years ago" before the owner "put it in a drawer".
The "sympathetic" service involved replacing only one pusher. Personally I do both or none as I don't like the look of one old and one new.
I am afraid I don't believe most of what this seller says.
- Posts
- 34,267
- Likes
- 38,886
dsio
··Ash @ ΩFThe 1035 bracelet on the 002 combined with one real and one non original end link also tend to scream spare parts
- Posts
- 5,316
- Likes
- 24,323
Spacefruit
··Prolific Speedmaster HoarderThe 1035 bracelet on the 002 combined with one real and one non original end link also tend to scream spare parts
Yes, i was going to mention that...I mean why do that
- Posts
- 443
- Likes
- 819
BASE1000
·Why is this a 105.003 dial and not a 105.002 dial?
Because the outer printing has the diameter of a 105.003 and not of a 2998 which results in almost covering the printing of the outer minute marking by the silver rehaut. The 105.002 is a transitional watch which was built only for around one year (1962). I have never seen it with the 105.003 dial as we do here but always with the old dial (no TT either around the swiss made) and only the new baton hands.
I would bet that the example here has the TT around the swiss made 😗
- Posts
- 32
- Likes
- 28
justintime
·Hi All,
Please allow me to clear a few things up for you all from the horses mouth so to speak.
The watch has most definitely been fully serviced and by that I mean the entire movement by a very good watchmaker and at considerable expense.
The crystal has been replaced but the original one that I found the watch with was exactly the same (have the old crystal still) and it covered the bottom of the dial markings.
A pusher has been replaced as I mentioned in the ad.
The hands...I have read various comments and it was the opinion of Dsio among others over the life of this forum, and myself after looking at the serial of this particular watch, that these 105002 mostly came with Alpha hands, and since the original hands were in need of replacement or reluming I chose to source what I believe to be the original hands, 1960s Alphas with a similar colour lume to match the plots.
The chrono I preferred this style to the later white one as it matched the colour of the dial and silver Alphas and for 35$ someone can change it back if they wish as I don't think this effects the originality of the watch judging by some of the rubbish I see.
As for sitting I a drawer this is poetic license as a means of describing how the watch looked when it came to me. I think the semantics of whose drawer it sat in or whether it was a cardboard box or a metal tin and for exactly how long etc etc are never to be know. The watch is clearly very old and had definitely not been worn for many many years & that's all I was alluding to.
The bracelet also came with the watch when I received it (whether it came out the factory with this bracelet I do not know) and with those end links and I am pretty sure I was honest and up front about those too.
The main issue is the dial markings I will try and clear this up that they are indeed Swiss Made but haven't had the time. I did ask my watchmaker to check at the time but have since forgotten what he said but I was not concerned with the answer which leads me to believe it was all correct.
I really don't think I have tried to mislead anyone about anything and if you look at my description of the watch above and on eBay it's one and the same.
The most important thing is this watch, hand on heart, looks absolutely beautiful on the wrist - it's one of the coolest Speedmasters I've personally ever seen but that could be beacuse I love the colour grey - and no one will be disappointed when they see it in person - the colour is unique and it is a 105.002.
As for the price I'm really not making much after what I spent in both money and time etc and I'm easy if I sell it or I don't I'd actually rather keep it but if someone sees the value in this long term as I do they won't quibble. It's only going to be 15 and 20 k in another 3 / 6 years and that's another honest opinion!
Love the forums and for all your help and discussions of such matters they have proved invaluable to me and so I hope you find my response of value also.
Kind regards
Please allow me to clear a few things up for you all from the horses mouth so to speak.
The watch has most definitely been fully serviced and by that I mean the entire movement by a very good watchmaker and at considerable expense.
The crystal has been replaced but the original one that I found the watch with was exactly the same (have the old crystal still) and it covered the bottom of the dial markings.
A pusher has been replaced as I mentioned in the ad.
The hands...I have read various comments and it was the opinion of Dsio among others over the life of this forum, and myself after looking at the serial of this particular watch, that these 105002 mostly came with Alpha hands, and since the original hands were in need of replacement or reluming I chose to source what I believe to be the original hands, 1960s Alphas with a similar colour lume to match the plots.
The chrono I preferred this style to the later white one as it matched the colour of the dial and silver Alphas and for 35$ someone can change it back if they wish as I don't think this effects the originality of the watch judging by some of the rubbish I see.
As for sitting I a drawer this is poetic license as a means of describing how the watch looked when it came to me. I think the semantics of whose drawer it sat in or whether it was a cardboard box or a metal tin and for exactly how long etc etc are never to be know. The watch is clearly very old and had definitely not been worn for many many years & that's all I was alluding to.
The bracelet also came with the watch when I received it (whether it came out the factory with this bracelet I do not know) and with those end links and I am pretty sure I was honest and up front about those too.
The main issue is the dial markings I will try and clear this up that they are indeed Swiss Made but haven't had the time. I did ask my watchmaker to check at the time but have since forgotten what he said but I was not concerned with the answer which leads me to believe it was all correct.
I really don't think I have tried to mislead anyone about anything and if you look at my description of the watch above and on eBay it's one and the same.
The most important thing is this watch, hand on heart, looks absolutely beautiful on the wrist - it's one of the coolest Speedmasters I've personally ever seen but that could be beacuse I love the colour grey - and no one will be disappointed when they see it in person - the colour is unique and it is a 105.002.
As for the price I'm really not making much after what I spent in both money and time etc and I'm easy if I sell it or I don't I'd actually rather keep it but if someone sees the value in this long term as I do they won't quibble. It's only going to be 15 and 20 k in another 3 / 6 years and that's another honest opinion!
Love the forums and for all your help and discussions of such matters they have proved invaluable to me and so I hope you find my response of value also.
Kind regards
- Posts
- 2,876
- Likes
- 1,962
TNTwatch
·Just coincidentally found out this 002 was discussed here before as those short lumes look familiar: http://omegaforums.net/threads/is-this-a-105-002-or-105-003.15182/. You gambled and you won, Justin!
Edited:
- Posts
- 5,316
- Likes
- 24,323
Spacefruit
··Prolific Speedmaster HoarderHi All,
Please allow me to clear a few things up for you all from the horses mouth so to speak.
The watch has most definitely been fully serviced and by that I mean the entire movement by a very good watchmaker and at considerable expense.
The crystal has been replaced but the original one that I found the watch with was exactly the same (have the old crystal still) and it covered the bottom of the dial markings.
A pusher has been replaced as I mentioned in the ad.
The hands...I have read various comments and it was the opinion of Dsio among others over the life of this forum, and myself after looking at the serial of this particular watch, that these 105002 mostly came with Alpha hands, and since the original hands were in need of replacement or reluming I chose to source what I believe to be the original hands, 1960s Alphas with a similar colour lume to match the plots.
The chrono I preferred this style to the later white one as it matched the colour of the dial and silver Alphas and for 35$ someone can change it back if they wish as I don't think this effects the originality of the watch judging by some of the rubbish I see.
As for sitting I a drawer this is poetic license as a means of describing how the watch looked when it came to me. I think the semantics of whose drawer it sat in or whether it was a cardboard box or a metal tin and for exactly how long etc etc are never to be know. The watch is clearly very old and had definitely not been worn for many many years & that's all I was alluding to.
The bracelet also came with the watch when I received it (whether it came out the factory with this bracelet I do not know) and with those end links and I am pretty sure I was honest and up front about those too.
The main issue is the dial markings I will try and clear this up that they are indeed Swiss Made but haven't had the time. I did ask my watchmaker to check at the time but have since forgotten what he said but I was not concerned with the answer which leads me to believe it was all correct.
I really don't think I have tried to mislead anyone about anything and if you look at my description of the watch above and on eBay it's one and the same.
The most important thing is this watch, hand on heart, looks absolutely beautiful on the wrist - it's one of the coolest Speedmasters I've personally ever seen but that could be beacuse I love the colour grey - and no one will be disappointed when they see it in person - the colour is unique and it is a 105.002.
As for the price I'm really not making much after what I spent in both money and time etc and I'm easy if I sell it or I don't I'd actually rather keep it but if someone sees the value in this long term as I do they won't quibble. It's only going to be 15 and 20 k in another 3 / 6 years and that's another honest opinion!
Love the forums and for all your help and discussions of such matters they have proved invaluable to me and so I hope you find my response of value also.
Kind regards
Thank you for coming on and putting your side, and a few more details. Always interesting to hear how others think.
I agree that an 002 in 1983 4xxx serial is most often seen in original condition with Alpha hands.
I am curious, given the missing pusher on purchase, how much work you had to do on the movement? Serials on 002's are very specific as there were so few, and all 19m's i have seen are in the range I mention. Now someone may pop up with an outlier, so I am only talking probabilities.
I note you have fitted replacement hands, and I agree they (the H/M hands) look absolutely perfect in terms of period correctness (they have the curved lume ends) and length.. However the basis for replacing the hour minute hands was to be more original, and yet you chose to place a non original spec chrono hand, because you liked the look of it.
The dial is a big red flag - it has more than degradation, it has considerable abrasion damage, that I can only think came from living outside the watch or at the very least without the protection of a crystal. In any event the dial is not of the same design I have seen on another 002, and as others have said a quick look at the de-cased movement and dial will show it. If it does show to be a 105.003 dial then it raises questions as to just how much of the watch actually left the factory together.
So if the dial is not original, the hands are not original, and the bracelet is not original to the watch, is it fair to allude in your listing that the watch is indeed a fine and original example of a 105.002?
Now all of this is only important because the price is so high. At this level buyers deserve to be able to dissect and satisfy themselves as to the originality and condition. When it was sold on ebay (an estate sale??) for $5200 (with several bidders over $4500 by the way) it was a fun watch, not fine, but interesting.
Now poetic license has its place, but (and here I quote) "As for the price I'm really not making much......".
$5200 to $10,000. Well even I cant spend $4800 restoring a speedmaster.
I am not trying to be objectionable, or pick a fight, but this is a community. Don't tell me (us!) you know what you are doing, or that you are not making any money, when its not true.
Instead ask, we will help.
- Posts
- 5,316
- Likes
- 24,323
Spacefruit
··Prolific Speedmaster HoarderHere is an example of a early 002, note the H/M hands are modern, but aged to match
- Posts
- 16,863
- Likes
- 47,901
STANDY
··schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collectorBrown ,grey give me the above one (Spacefruits) any day.
- Posts
- 2,876
- Likes
- 1,962
TNTwatch
·$5200 to $10,000
Now the main issue is the dial originality. Just a picture of the dial off the case/crystal should do it - easy peasy considering the high value. I'd do it just to get $50 more. The chrono second hand that came previously doesn't look too bad and can be cleaned relatively easily.
- Posts
- 32
- Likes
- 28
justintime
·Hi Spacefruit and TNT
I do appreciate the discussion or I would not have popped my head up to talk to you all about this. I have nothing to hide nor does most of what's said change my views whatsoever on the positing or the watch...I knew this would be the case before I posted so really please understand that I posted in the spirit of the forum and with a genuine desire for open discussion on such topics and not because I care either way about the value or otherwise of this watch in a sale. As I said if it sells I know someone will love it and enjoy it and make money and if it doesn't I shall be that person anyway.
So.. let he who '''hath not thrown a good service and an original part or two at a neglected vintage 1960s speedmaster +++ then eventually sold it for more money''' cast the first stone
If this is you Spacefruit then I am humbled by your ability to resist trading the odd watch in a market that rises only upwards it seems and wish I had your bank account to hold everything I buy also 😀
Silliness aside it seems we are agreed on the hands bar the chrono (which I'm sure can both agree a buyer can put the original one back on with ease). With regards to service I have the part that was replaced and I am not a watchmaker but I believe the main part was a spring the pusher and the rest was labour of taking apart and cleaning the movement by a person who really know what he is doing and knows how to charge for it. With regards the dial that's fairly simple to settle as TNT kindly points out and happy to do so when I get time.
As for price. No secrets there, I bought it considerably below market as others perhaps bid it as a -003. Yes I put the kind of figures in to it that TNT mentions which takes us watch and parts and service only to say circa 8k. Arguably that's still below or around market on a normal dial and perhaps under market if you value the grey dial. The main point you are forgetting is the time factor and the cost of capital employed. I have spent my time and money doing this both of which also come at a premium. Furthermore take in to account eBay fees which are now 13 percent? So when I said I'm not making much money do you now understand that this is not a money spinner or do we need to discuss that further?
I simply brought back to market in collectable condition and undervalued and unloved watch in a manner in which someone can value and cherish it on their wrist as I have and there is a price associated with such a project and although you may not value this project in the same way as I do I can assure you there are many that do and on that point I am afraid we will have to agree to differ..
Now I should really ignore your last comments as I feel emotion is perhaps running away with you a little here ...... but let me just say I never once said I "know what I am doing" nor that I wasn't making money if I sell it. Even if I did I am not sure where any of that comes in to play here as it's comes across to me as little boys playground banter, but as you say this is a community and it takes all sorts of people and personalities to make it such. I don't wish to but heads I respect your opinions as I would hope you do mine, I enjoy our discussion and I wish you a lovely day...and hasn't this made it more fun for us all? 😀)))
I do appreciate the discussion or I would not have popped my head up to talk to you all about this. I have nothing to hide nor does most of what's said change my views whatsoever on the positing or the watch...I knew this would be the case before I posted so really please understand that I posted in the spirit of the forum and with a genuine desire for open discussion on such topics and not because I care either way about the value or otherwise of this watch in a sale. As I said if it sells I know someone will love it and enjoy it and make money and if it doesn't I shall be that person anyway.
So.. let he who '''hath not thrown a good service and an original part or two at a neglected vintage 1960s speedmaster +++ then eventually sold it for more money''' cast the first stone
If this is you Spacefruit then I am humbled by your ability to resist trading the odd watch in a market that rises only upwards it seems and wish I had your bank account to hold everything I buy also 😀
Silliness aside it seems we are agreed on the hands bar the chrono (which I'm sure can both agree a buyer can put the original one back on with ease). With regards to service I have the part that was replaced and I am not a watchmaker but I believe the main part was a spring the pusher and the rest was labour of taking apart and cleaning the movement by a person who really know what he is doing and knows how to charge for it. With regards the dial that's fairly simple to settle as TNT kindly points out and happy to do so when I get time.
As for price. No secrets there, I bought it considerably below market as others perhaps bid it as a -003. Yes I put the kind of figures in to it that TNT mentions which takes us watch and parts and service only to say circa 8k. Arguably that's still below or around market on a normal dial and perhaps under market if you value the grey dial. The main point you are forgetting is the time factor and the cost of capital employed. I have spent my time and money doing this both of which also come at a premium. Furthermore take in to account eBay fees which are now 13 percent? So when I said I'm not making much money do you now understand that this is not a money spinner or do we need to discuss that further?
I simply brought back to market in collectable condition and undervalued and unloved watch in a manner in which someone can value and cherish it on their wrist as I have and there is a price associated with such a project and although you may not value this project in the same way as I do I can assure you there are many that do and on that point I am afraid we will have to agree to differ..
Now I should really ignore your last comments as I feel emotion is perhaps running away with you a little here ...... but let me just say I never once said I "know what I am doing" nor that I wasn't making money if I sell it. Even if I did I am not sure where any of that comes in to play here as it's comes across to me as little boys playground banter, but as you say this is a community and it takes all sorts of people and personalities to make it such. I don't wish to but heads I respect your opinions as I would hope you do mine, I enjoy our discussion and I wish you a lovely day...and hasn't this made it more fun for us all? 😀)))
- Posts
- 5,316
- Likes
- 24,323
Spacefruit
··Prolific Speedmaster HoarderWell Justin I appreciate that you have taken my comments as they were intended, not as a personal attack but as a robust discussion. I think we have all managed well to get our views across that would have been better in a F2F discussion.
I think you were brave, but not stupid to buy at that level. I agree prices of all straight lugs are rising. Some one just paid £5000 for a 2998-4 with a new dial and handset - and a way to early movement. As parts, the case comes out costing over £3500!
I do get the feeling you were perhaps charged (a lot) more for your watchmaking than someone like Archer (Canada) or Swiss Tec (UK) would have charged you. And they have parts.
I also feel you may have placed a lot of value in the grey dial, a value that perhaps others may not share.
Now I am with you, in spite of all my comments, in that I value a coloured dial greatly. However I cannot value this one because of the obvious damage. There may well be others who do.
I hear your comments on eBay taking 13% . Although I get confused, don't they cap the sellers fees now? It has changed over the last few years and I am afraid ebay lost a lot of its attraction for me. It is still the place to get widest exposure.
Anyway I wish you the best of luck with your sale, and once again I admire your attitude.
I think you were brave, but not stupid to buy at that level. I agree prices of all straight lugs are rising. Some one just paid £5000 for a 2998-4 with a new dial and handset - and a way to early movement. As parts, the case comes out costing over £3500!
I do get the feeling you were perhaps charged (a lot) more for your watchmaking than someone like Archer (Canada) or Swiss Tec (UK) would have charged you. And they have parts.
I also feel you may have placed a lot of value in the grey dial, a value that perhaps others may not share.
Now I am with you, in spite of all my comments, in that I value a coloured dial greatly. However I cannot value this one because of the obvious damage. There may well be others who do.
I hear your comments on eBay taking 13% . Although I get confused, don't they cap the sellers fees now? It has changed over the last few years and I am afraid ebay lost a lot of its attraction for me. It is still the place to get widest exposure.
Anyway I wish you the best of luck with your sale, and once again I admire your attitude.
Edited:
- Posts
- 783
- Likes
- 471
mozambique
·To my knowledge, ebay charges 10% on sale price on watches capped at $750
- Posts
- 4
- Likes
- 0
TurboM3
·I'm new at vintage speedy's but I didn't think the 002 had those type of hands. I thought only the 2998 had those hands.
- Posts
- 5,270
- Likes
- 78,640
Barking mad
··Prolific Speedmaster HoarderDauphine hands(main hour and minute) are correct for 002 with later 002's having baton hands and ever so slightly different dial.
- Posts
- 34,267
- Likes
- 38,886
- Posts
- 443
- Likes
- 819
BASE1000
·Here on this pic we see the correct dial for a 105.002. The swiss made is without the TT and fits perfect inside the silver rehaut covering only half of the swiss made writing. This is how it should look like.
The dial of the discussed example is from a 105.003.
Look at this pic of three 105.003's that I took a couple of years ago:
The left one is the modern service dial from Omega for that watch. In the middle you see a beautiful chocolate dial and this watch has got the silver rehaut from the 2998 inside. Just look, how the 105.003 is slightly to big and how the T swiss made T and the outer printing is covered too much. Just as we see it here.
The 105.003 on the right has the correct dial and the correct black rehaut leaving space to see the full printing.
- Posts
- 6,667
- Likes
- 11,570
MSNWatch
··Vintage Omega AficionadoBecause the outer printing has the diameter of a 105.003 and not of a 2998 which results in almost covering the printing of the outer minute marking by the silver rehaut. The 105.002 is a transitional watch which was built only for around one year (1962). I have never seen it with the 105.003 dial as we do here but always with the old dial (no TT either around the swiss made) and only the new baton hands.
I would bet that the example here has the TT around the swiss made 😗
The presence or absence of TT is something that can be confirmed by the seller adding further clarity to this dial discussion.
- Posts
- 2,876
- Likes
- 1,962
TNTwatch
·Here on this pic we see the correct dial for a 105.002. The swiss made is without the TT and fits perfect inside the silver rehaut covering only half of the swiss made writing. This is how it should look like.
The dial of the discussed example is from a 105.003.
Look at this pic of three 105.003's that I took a couple of years ago:
The left one is the modern service dial from Omega for that watch. In the middle you see a beautiful chocolate dial and this watch has got the silver rehaut from the 2998 inside. Just look, how the 105.003 is slightly to big and how the T swiss made T and the outer printing is covered too much. Just as we see it here.
The 105.003 on the right has the correct dial and the correct black rehaut leaving space to see the full printing.
