Advice on working with crumbly Radium at home

STANDY · Jun 8, 2019

Walviskroket
200 mostly useless posts in 2 months is insane btw

dennisthemenace
FIFY

Come on this one was very useful ☕

Walrus
I could see why you would say that but we had already been talking for twenty minutes before we got into watches. They were two friendly guys I felt bad he didn’t even know he had a redial. He asked me for help he wants his shop to be known having nice watches and he does have some nice watches. He asked me for suggestions and my first thought was separating the chaff from the wheat. I didn’t say throw out the invicta I suggested they don’t have a Rolex sitting next to an invicta sitting next to a omega. Those were really the only things I said and they were appreciated enough that I got the 60’s constellation for 350. I know they aren’t upset as they even called last week to see how I am doing with the constellation. When I was younger I worked for the federal and state prison system mainly with the guys being released on decade or longer sentence. Because of this I had to bulk up on psychology to work with these guys and while I’m no expert I can usually tell when my approach to someone needs to be adjusted. I have had failures though. One guy on my caseload needed to be medicated he decided he didn’t. We had just got him set up in independent housing and he grabbed a knife charged at me saying he wasn’t taking his meds. I moved quickly that day.

They were also the ones who brought up trading my Cellini. So again, I can see why you would say that but they did request my help. If they ask me what to do about the painted dials I don’t know a good answer for that one. I’m really hoping these guys make it. I can tell they are nervous I wish I had more knowledge or suggestions but I don’t know their business. Moving the invicta was a damn good idea on my part.

Walrus · Jun 8, 2019

dennisthemenace
FIFY

Well thank you. I’d like to say it comes easy but sometimes it’s work. Maybe I should just take my watches and go back to Reddit. But I did enjoy my time here I just don’t like to be serious all the time.

dennisthemenace · Jun 8, 2019

Walrus
Well thank you. I’d like to say it comes easy but sometimes it’s work. Maybe I should just take my watches and go back to Reddit. But I did enjoy my time here I just don’t like to be serious all the time.

If only. Do you mean you won't be hanging around to post your Cellini for sale now?

Walrus · Jun 8, 2019

dennisthemenace
If only. Do you mean you won't be hanging around to post your Cellini for sale now?[/QUOTE

never planned on selling it here. I just talk about because I’m working on a trade in my area and was looking for feedback. It’s quartz so I now there would be little interest here. I do like the watch and if I end up not trading it I’ll be okay keeping it.

Walrus · Jun 8, 2019

STANDY
Come on this one was very useful ☕

FYI this is a true story 16 years I worked with DMHAS including the prison system and juvenile detention and I was chased by a non med complaint patient with a butcher knife in the community setting. FYI

STANDY · Jun 8, 2019

Walrus
FYI this is a true story 16 years I worked with DMHAS including the prison system and juvenile detention and I was chased by a non med complaint patient with a butcher knife in the community setting. FYI

What watch were you wearing, what watch was the non med complaint patient wearing ?

“ At work a nutter with a Casio launched at me with a knife “

We need this information as there is a big difference between a nutter with a Rolex and a nutter wearing a Invicta

Professor · Jun 8, 2019

Correct me if I'm wrong but I've read that radium lume only looks dead because the coating has become opaque. That or something in the mix that reacts to the radium has become expended with time.
I wonder if there might be a way to revitalize the radium lume rather than replacing it?

STANDY · Jun 8, 2019

Professor
Correct me if I'm wrong but I've read that radium lume only looks dead because the coating has become opaque. That or something in the mix that reacts to the radium has become expended with time.
I wonder if there might be a way to revitalize the radium lume rather than replacing it?

We would have no spent uranium getting buried if that was the case.

Professor · Jun 8, 2019

STANDY
We would have no spent uranium getting buried if that was the case.

Found this
"The luminous paint used on Great War (WW1) era trench watches was made with a mixture of radium and a phosphor, zinc sulphide doped with an activator, usually copper. The zinc sulphide phosphor glowed brightly when hit by radiation from the radium. This paint glowed all the time, day and night, without needing exposure to sunlight, and continued to glow even when stored away from the light in a drawer. However, after about three or four years the zinc sulphide phosphor was burned out by the continual radiation bombardment and no longer glows in the dark - but the radium has hardly decayed at all and is still there, emitting radiation."

"
There is more about these early luminous dials and their use during the Great War on my page about Trench Watches. Use the next link to go direct to the section about luminous dials.

You will notice that the article says that the "best quality of luminous paint" will last about three years. If you find a watch with the original radium based paint like this you will discover that it no longer glows in the dark. This is because the fluorescent material has long since been worn out by the constant bombardment of radiation, but the radium, which has a half life of about 1,600 years, will still be very nearly as radioactive as when it was new and you need to be aware of this and take some basic safety precautions."

"
Reactivating Radium Paint
I sometimes get asked about the possibility of painting over old radium with zinc sulphide to get a glow from still active the radium, and on the face of it this is an interesting idea. Radium will be still virtually as radioactive as it was when it was first applied (although if the effect was boosted at the time by mesothorium that will have decayed long ago). And by all accounts, modern luminous paint has nothing like the same glow as radium paint. A friend of mine who is in his mid seventies remembers from the 1950s one of his brothers having a belt with the buckle carrying radium luminous paint, and he says "you could see it glowing right across the [farm] yard, it was really bright".

One problem is that zinc sulphide needs to be "doped" with something, e.g. copper, silver, manganese, to get the best phosphorescent effect and I am not sure how this could be done. Another problem is that the radium and the old zinc sulphide were bound intimately together in varnish and I think that applying the phosphorescent paint on top of the old paint will not achieve as good a glow. There is also the problem of painting onto skeleton hands. These are painted from the back and it would not look very good to paint new material onto the front, it would be impossible to get a neat result. But these are just speculative ideas and not something that should be attempted.

In reality, messing about with old radium paint in this way is asking for trouble and not something that I would do, and I would strongly recommend that you don't do it either. Old radium paint is fragile due to radiation damage over the years and it is prone to flaking and disintegrating into small particles and virtually invisible dust, all of which are radioactive. Old radium paint needs to be approached and handled with great care. Any attempt to remove old radium paint and reprocess it in some way is also illegal in the UK under Health and Safety laws. Although often the object of jokes, these laws are intended to keep you and everyone around you safe and, in the case of radioactive substances, should be taken very seriously.

Bottom line: don't do it."

http://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/luminous.php#radioactivepaint

michael22 · Jun 8, 2019

Professor
Correct me if I'm wrong but I've read that radium lume only looks dead because the coating has become opaque. That or something in the mix that reacts to the radium has become expended with time.
I wonder if there might be a way to revitalize the radium lume rather than replacing it?

@Deafboy 's article is informative:

"Why doesn't old radium paint glow in the dark? You can't see radiation, and radium paint only glowed because the radioactive radium was mixed with a fluorescent compound, usually based on zinc sulphide. Radiation from the radium would hit the zinc sulphide, which would emit light in response. Over time the fluorescence property of the zinc sulphide was worn out by the radiation, and that is why the paint no longer glows in the dark. The radium is still there, almost as active as the day the paint was mixed, but the fluorescent compound no longer gives off light when it is hit by radiation."

Radium has a half-life of 1600 yrs, so it won't change much in our lifetime.
Perhaps painting more zinc sulphide paint over the top would bind it in place, & make it glow.

Walrus · Jun 8, 2019

STANDY
What watch were you wearing, what watch was the non med complaint patient wearing ?

“ At work a nutter with a Casio launched at me with a knife “

We need this information as there is a big difference between a nutter with a Rolex and a nutter wearing a Invicta

I do remember he had a watch, I think it was digital. I had a movado with a steel bracelet. Still have it. I was a bit more fixated on the knife and his foot movement than the watch so it couldn’t have been that nice of a watch.

Professor · Jun 8, 2019

michael22
@Deafboy 's article is informative:

I missed his link, but found the same site quickly in a search.
So its possible but not worth the effort.

When Radium paint was in use finding fresh paint or someone to re paint with radium would not have been a problem.

michael22 · Jun 9, 2019

Professor
I missed his link, but found the same site quickly in a search.
So its possible but not worth the effort.

When Radium paint was in use finding fresh paint or someone to re paint with radium would not have been a problem.

I don't think you need to add more radium, just fresh zinc sulphide. Probably pointless when the radiation is degrading everything, including the binders.

Walrus · Jun 9, 2019

I guess I should clarify I guess people thought I was serious suggesting any screw with radium. I was being sarcastic and did amuse myself but seem to have pissed a few off. I’ve been employed in a number of dangerous occupations and just this year I broke my hand and tore every tendon in my shoulder off. Had surgery for one, planning surgery for the next. I didn’t mean to make light of anyone’s health but I’ve also been stabbed with a used syringe at work one time, not on purpose it was careless storage by a coworker since it was a drug rehab setting I kind of figured I’d end up with something, hepatitis C can live a long time outside of the body so I had to take that in stride. I don’t work on watches but I will tinker with a few broken ones I have to see if I can learn anything but I would not screw with any radium. As a matter of a fact I wouldn’t even mess with any hands on a watch as I don’t have the skill. So excuse me if people took any offense or thought I was serious. I thought when I suggested the OP could at least try working on it and give us a rundown of any I’ll health it would be obvious I was being sarcastic. I shall refrain from any further radium comments but I do think it’s a shame how we have poisoned our oceans with plastic and they are now finding particles thousands of feat deep that end up in the food chain. Lead in the inner city, bodily fluids everywhere. It’s just getting harder and harder for me to be serious. I will try to tone down my sarcasm but I only belong to a boxing forum where everything here is extremely tame by comparison and Reddit which my radium comments would have made hundreds happy they they, like me, are insane

Martin_J_N · Jun 9, 2019

Walviskroket
After seeing the series Chernobyl I wouldn't even think about it 😀

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt736633...pf_rd_t=15506&pf_rd_i=toptv&ref_=chttvtp_tt_1

Great series, best viewing so far this year

queriver · Jun 9, 2019

Very educational thread. So, this is the state of play as I understand it...

Radium (half-life of 1600 yrs), if ingested, is clearly very dangerous because the high level of radioactivity and slow decay rate means a single ingestion of a Radium particle into your body will continue to emit a high level of radiation into your tissues at basically the same rate for the rest of your life.

Radium decays into Radon gas. Radon is odourless, colourless, dense and also radioactive but with a very short half-life of 3.8 days. Even though Radon is a heavy gas (Atomic Number 86) I presume most watches from the early-mid 20th century would not be sealed sufficiently well to prevent the gas emitting into the surrounding air. If you store your radium watches in a confined space (e.g. Rolex transport box, Omega service case), which in turn might be inside a safe deposit box, then the Radon gas will be a higher concentration than the ambient background level which is generally safe.

Radon gas decays into a sequence of metallic solids that are also radioactive and also have short half-lives. Those metallic solids are electrostatically charged and adhere themselves to dust particles that may become embedded in lung tissue if inhaled. Therefore keep Radon gas out of a dusty environment.

So, to the question about having and storing Radium watches: ... Assuming I don't wear one (or very rarely), don't open the watch case to prevent risk of exposure to Radium particles, is it OK to be exposed to Radon gas emanating from the case, and its daughter metallic solids that are ingestable via dust particles, if I occasionally take it out of a storage box and there's some dust around?

padders · Jun 9, 2019

Its not the half life so much that makes Radium dangerous, it's the decay mode. You may be aware that there are 3 main forms of decay, alpha, beta, gamma. In terms of danger to health, ingesting or inhaling an alpha emitter is serious because it bombards your organs with high energy ionised He nuclei which act like a bulldozer on tissue vs the much smaller electrons of beta or EMR of gamma, these have a less serious physiological effect internally. Tritium decays via beta so it rather less troublesome which is why it was adopted in the 1960s. Its half life is only 12.5 years though so most tritium is now virtually inert. More importantly its biological half life is only 10 days so it doesnt linger like Radium.

As you say, radium slowly decays into Radon gas, which is also an alpha emitter so this too isn't great to breathe in but the risks with that would only be significant IMO if you sealed your watch in an airtight container for a long while then took a good lungful when opening the container. The gas is heavier than air so will collect at the bottom of the container, safe whatever. Cornish Granite rock is Uranium bearing in places, indeed much of the SW of Britain has elevated levels and this also has Radon gas in its decay chain and there is a real issue with high concentrations of Radon collecting in the cellars of some houses in that part of the world so it is a issue, just not IMO with watches.

The massive nature of alpha means it isn't very penetrating, it wont get through your skin for instance so it much safer if you wear a mask or prevent the dust entering your mouth/nose. I would be rather more worried about the dust from watch lume than any daughter product gas. In reality though even a one off exposure isn't likely to be seriously injurious, like with most things in nuclear physics, its all all about chance, probability and risk. You increase your risk of an issue with increased exposure. Smoking too is bad news for lungs of course!

When I was studying nuclear physics a few decades ago, they gave us beta sources to play with on the bench, Strontium 90 was one from memory, but were rather more careful about alpha emitters. That said Strontium was a major issue in the Chernobyl incident. Re precautions, wear a mask and I wouldn't eat and drink around an alpha source for instance...

More reading:

http://www.radioactivity.eu.com

queriver · Jun 9, 2019

A good idea to avoid storing all your radium watches in one non-ventilated location to reduce the risk of high radon gas concentration.

Professor · Jun 9, 2019

I read once that Alpha radiation can't pass through a sheet of paper.
Some types of radiation can pass through metal but are stopped by water or blocks of wax.

I remember that common cinder blocks used to construct foundations of houses in the 1950's were found to exude Radon Gas. Don't remember exactly why, but there were warnings about dangerous radon levels in basements used as play rooms and methods of sealing the surfaces.

padders · Jun 9, 2019

Professor
I read once that Alpha radiation can't pass through a sheet of paper.
Some types of radiation can pass through metal but are stopped by water or blocks of wax.

I remember that common cinder blocks used to construct foundations of houses in the 1950's were found to exude Radon Gas. Don't remember exactly why, but there were warnings about dangerous radon levels in basements used as play rooms and methods of sealing the surfaces.

In my bench experiments, it can be detected after one sheet but can be attenuated by a few, so yes it isn't very penetrating, which conversely makes it more dangerous because all of its energy in transferred its immediate surroundings, rather than passing through like gamma can. Like I said, fine with skin, not fine in your lungs or digestive tract. Be aware that it is measurable on watches with the crystal in place, so it does have some penetrative capability.

It was likely what I mentioned above, background radiation from the decay of naturally occurring Uranium in the bedrock or perhaps in the cinder blocks you refer to. This is only really common in the UK in the SW but of course may be more of an issue in countries with higher Uranium ore concentrations. Australia perhaps?