I have been chasing vintage Lemania 15CH chronographs from the 1930s and 40s ever since I began collecting vintage watches. Omega and Tissot collectors know of these as the highly collectible 33.3 series of chronographs. As most collectors of these watches know, there is scant data available in the historical record. There were three different variants of Lemania 15CH movements used over roughly 10 years of production, and it is difficult to know when the different SSIH brands transitioned from one type to another. However the values on these chronographs can easily reach five-figures, so there is a strong temptation for the unscrupulous to swap out movements and change dials. Without that historical record, who's to say what's been altered? Your only defense against a frankenized watch is to develop your own records. I do this by routinely archiving pictures and sales of these watches from eBay and other auction sites. As your record develops over time, you can begin to discern patterns in dials and serial numbers from movements and casebacks that can help you to judge whether a watch has been tampered with. A case in point: In December 2017, a mid-1930s chronograph featuring an early Lemania 15CHT movement came up as a buy-it-now sale on eBay. The watch featured a slightly-faded dial with Breguet numerals, a red snail tachymeter, telemeter scale, and lovely moon hands set inside a steel coin-edge case (although the winding crown/pusher was likely not original): The caseback serial 33788 and movement number 337 suggest an early production watch, probably 1935-1937. The style of the dial closely matched other watches with similar serials, indicating the dial was likely original to the watch. Exactly two years later, in December 2019, a 1940s chronograph came up for auction on eBay. It sold for $4,250 and featured an original 1940s lumed dial and handset… ...but that dial and handset were fitted onto that same 1930s movement and case from two years earlier: In hindsight I suppose a seasoned Lemania collector might have been able to recognize an early (mid-1930s) movement and realize that the style of the later (1940s) dial did not match the movement. But I didn’t recognize the franken watch until I was in the process of capturing the sales data for my records...and noticed the serial numbers matched a record I already had. Since there is no way to know when or where or why this particular watch was frankenized, I can only offer this posting as a sort of requiem to the original watch that is now lost forever. And as a cautionary tale to newer vintage watch collectors: Do your homework, take notes, keep records, play the long game.
Very interesting, especially since the new dial and hands are certainly no better than the originals. When one sees a damaged dial and hands with lume missing, one generally doesn't think they were swapped in.
Excellent work @Vitezi. In the (all-too frequent) absence of official records, heritage data gathered by the serious collectors of today is going to be essential to the serious collectors of tomorrow.
What about asking to the seller what happens ? Do you know the PDF file about Tissot Chrono in Dutch ?
Yes indeed, that paper is a useful resource. One of my watches is pictured in it I doubt the seller would be inclined to tell us anything useful.
Great post! Yes, this ^^^. Documenting observations, especially serial numbers, can be tedious. I can't tell you how many hours I've spent over the years zooming in on pictures trying to decipher a stamped numeral. But the insights you can get from the data are many. Here some of the things that doing this for one narrow niche (Omega 1040) led me to learn: - I know the typical serial number ranges of certain references. This was the original purpose of my documenting serials, the rest I was pleasantly surprised to learn... - I know examples like in your post when a serial reappears over time, sometimes more than twice, sometimes in multiple configurations - I know which configurations are common, which are rare, and which were earliest and I can say so with data to back it up as opposed to old unproven wisdom that gets repeated ad nauseam, or from a gut feeling from scanning instagram or reading Hodinkee sales posts - I know of a guy bragging (not here, on another forum and IG) about his 100% original grandpa's watch, that I know is not 100% original because I've seen the serial number for sale, attached to a different reference (I won't snitch unless he tries selling...) - I created production estimates by reference for all cal. 1040 references - Based on this, Omega changed its official stance on the "limited" production of cal. 1041 from 2,000 to over 17,000 as my data predicted. This, in turn, changes the entire context around the story of the Speedmaster 125 (limited piece that must be unloved, otherwise why are there so many for sale, to wow they made and sold a lot of these, it must have been a popular and successful watch)/ All this to say your point is spot on.
It depends, of course, on the seller. It is a good tactic to ask the seller about how they obtained the watch, and I have had sellers give me lengthy written responses describing how a watch was given to them by their uncle, or how they found it in a barn, and so on. But it is far more important to develop your own expertise, and to "buy the watch" rather than "trust the seller."
In fact, on pictures it's a 15TL and not a CHT since there is 2 pushers. I'm wrong ? And did you see that the dial and hands of the last sell was in the pdf ? So why this swap ? Finally it's a requiem for 2 chronograph ....
I believe the 15CHT was produced in both a 6-tooth column-wheel monopusher form (circa 1932) as well as an 8-tooth column-wheel two-pusher form (circa 1935?), but I defer to the Lemania experts. Well spotted! The damage looks to be the same on both examples.
Once again I'm amazed at the knowledge-base of information the members of this forum represent! Not a day goes by without adding something new to my already cramped brain.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-BuT5xHIR-rWW12dDRsX3JaS0k/view Tracked it down on horlogeforum.nl. Looks like a great resource. Surprised to see a couple of my watches in it too.
Fantastic piece of reference. Thanks for sharing! For the technically interested: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwcNwBXVQp-qM0hHVl9NX3R0cHc/view?usp=drivesdk Page 60+ covers cal 15. Cheers
As a follow-up to my original post above (January 2020), this same watch is now for sale at a well-known dealer, fitted with a new dial yet again. By my count, this is the third dial that this watch has had since 2017: Buyer beware, everyone.