I’ve noticed how skilled people are here in showing up redials. It’s impressive to see the combined effort of skilled minds.

But is it ever possible for a redial to be so expert, so good that no-one would know or be able to tell, ever? Or is there always some small thing that eventually gives it away?

 

I would think if it's that good, would it matter?

 

I would matter! But I would not know...

 

@hoipolloi would know
He spots things us mere mortals would never see

 

And he would also know because the best refials I have seen were made by his guy!

 

Problem though is that after spending time on this site, I'm staring at everything and questioning if it's real.

For example, there is a Zenith over at Hodinkee that sold in the last week or so. From looking at the magnified version I'm convinced it's a redial

https://shop.hodinkee.com/collectio...chronometre-automatic-1?variant=2072932384783

It was suggested earlier that if it's really good it doesn't matter. But if people on this site who collect want everything from the lume upwards to be authentic, then it surely MUST matter!

 

As I said in another response, if collectors want authenticity in every aspect, even down to re-lumed hands, then it must, by implication matter if it is or is not authentic. Even if it looks authentic and actually isn't, I'd still like to know.

 

But if no one would ever be able to tell, how would anyone know? Based the original question, how do we know that any dials are original?

 

Well the person who has had the redial done would know. Hopefully they would be ethical and disclose it, so given that scenario...

If you had two watches that looked virtually identical, were the same price, but knew that one was a redial and one wasn't, which one would you buy?

I know what my answer would be...

Cheers, Al

 

That's not the question, Al. Sure, if we knew, we wouldn't. To quote the OP "...so good that no-one would know or be able to tell, ever?" How would you ever know?

 

But it's a false premise - someone will always know.

 

In the vast majority of cases, knowledge and experience will suffice. In those rare cases in which a refinished dial is *dangerously* good, then provenance could confirm originality.

I find this to be a bit overblown, though, as there are very few cases of full redials that can ultimately pass for original. Touching up – and especially lume – is a different, and thornier matter.

 

How do you know?

 

Well, take for example the square Zenith watch sold on Hodinkee in their vintage watch shop the other day that I referred to above. After reading a lot of posts on this page, and looking at examples with a critical eye I'm convinced it was a redial. So, if I was a potential buyer, would I even question the competence of the experts over at Hodinkee, and accept it? Or am I wrong and they are right? My point being (which I'm not expressing terribly well) is that my "developing" eye and radar for looking at things critically is making me become a cynic who is now unable to trust his own judgement on these things. It's an uncomfortable state of being. If you have a moment, check out printing on the dial I am referring to...

 

The 6th sense

 

Common sense. Unless you believe that the person doing the redial is blind*, or dials are being abducted by aliens at night for probing and redialing, then clearly "someone" knows...like the person who actually did the redial...

Cheers, Al

* - yes a case could be made that some of them are, but considering this thread is about redials that are very good, the blind redialers are probably not involved.

 

The "experts" at Hodinkee have been mischaracterizing watches, on and off, since they began selling online! Even dealers who have no intent to deceive make mistakes at times, so it is always wise to do your own due diligence.

I understand that your eye is not fully developed, but that is true of all collectors, as we invariably have areas of expertise, and less experience in others. If you are considering an online purchase, then it is easy to have a questionable dial "vetted" on forums such as this one. It happens all the time here, as you have no doubt discovered.

If, on the other hand, you find yourself in a shop somewhere, or trading with a collector, etc., then you have two options. Either take a photo of the dial (with permission) and post it, or, if that is not possible, use your own judgment. With regard to the latter option, and irrespective of your level of confidence, I have this advice: if you are unsure and uneasy about the originality of a dial, and given a watch that is not cheap, walk away. There will be other opportunities.

 

Great advice, thank you!

 

I think that for some dials, a picture is not enough. you have to evaluate the dial having it in your hands, and looking with a loupe.

 

The problem comes for potential owners who insist on originality when the chain of ownership extends beyond the original owner who had it redialled. If it then passes through several subsequent owners, (especially via inheritance) then the knowledge of the original owner's redial may be lost. I believe there was a much more relaxed attitude to redialling/refurbishment in days gone by and that it may even have been done as part of regular servicing.

If someone has their watch refurbished or redialled then they have a duty to reveal that to a buyer. However, I do not believe they have any duty beyond that to purchasers/owners further down the chain of ownership.

I may be selfish, but I'm not overly concerned with potential owners having problems deciding whether any of my watches have been restored/refurbished in years to come. They are my watches and I don't feel like a custodian for future owners. If I ever sell any, I'll disclose what (if anything) has been done to them. There my responsibility ends.