A place for SAAF's (South African Air Force pilot's watch thread)

eugeneandresson · Aug 7, 2019

matthewt
Do you know if the 5012's specifically were issued to any other Airforces apart from South Africa.

To the RAAN (Royal Australian Airforce and Navy ?). Difference in dial is an incabloc symbol between 'automatic' and 6 o'clock lume plot. Also powered by the newer cal 5100 (so not 5012). Does not have AF markings.

matthewt
I have a 5012 that is a bit of a mystery. The caseback stamp is AF 20XXX, and i thought all the SAAF issued ones were AF11XXX.

That is a bit high...if memory serves, 11xxx and 12xxx. First series finely engraved, second series quite thick (yours looks fine, but I'm no expert!). Double signed cased back (11001/11015) is correct though. I wouldn't let it bother me... movement is a 5012?

matthewt · Aug 7, 2019

Thanks, Yes it is a 5012 movement, serial number 04006XXX. According to an "Authority" on these, below were the ranges of serials issued, so according to this (If this is correct) mine is an anomaly.

eugeneandresson · Aug 7, 2019

@matthewt here is I guess the source of that information ...

matthewt · Aug 7, 2019

I just received the same doc from Rikus, so cool for him to still have this. Thanks so much for showing!

matthewt · Aug 14, 2019

And found number 2! Although i think the chronograph second hand is incorrect and the lume is pretty thin in some places, i absolutely love it! It wears so well and looks so cool!

obstando · Aug 15, 2019

Here is mine

eugeneandresson · Aug 30, 2019

Holy crap...and there I thought I had a rogue bezel on my 5012. They say 2's a company...

Looking at these pics, it appears @matthewt has the same bezel as mine! Albeit in better condition.

matthewt

And with his permission, some better pics highlighting the font, which, is a match to the inner rehaut/ring/bezel counter ...

Another characteristic of this bezel, is the serrations at the pip. They have normal staggering ...whereas the more common SAAF 5012 bezel appears to have a big serration (like 2 with no gap) over the pip...

And from comparing to my world timer, the geometries are identical (which don’t look it due to the edge being well loved/worn) ... so same bezel.

Here is a picture of the common bezel with the inner ring ... notice that font difference ...

That’s 3 watches found (2x SAAF and 1x RAAN) with pictures in this thread, with such a bezel who has font matching the rest...there must be more out there.

eugeneandresson · Nov 26, 2019

Been meaning to post these. I never luck out on eBay, but it happened to me twice in September (badly or incorrectly listed, not in English, no watchers, no bids).

I am certain some of you saw these and thought ‘mmmmmmeh’...but to me it was ‘oooooo candy’. Especially seeing as the monopusher SAAFs are nowhere to be found...here an absolute beauty in fine condition...AF markings present...

When I compare it to the slightly older cousin in this thread (which is now back from a long deserved service) I see two interesting things...

1) The dials are different in finish (subregisters similar though). Top one is almost beige, and (difficult to photograph) almost looks like an enamel paint, whereas the bottom one is a shiny metallic off-white that is absolutely crazy under the sun.

2) Spacing of the T’s on the top one is much wider.

I know these are transitional (series 2), so should probably do more homework and compare the British issues ones.

Then this one happened (a real bargain imho too)...

Not AF marked...so a bit of a puzzle. AFAIK this reference with Lemania signed dials were all issued...have found 3 so far without markings. Still, it is what it is...

Groupshot.

fortuneteller · Feb 20, 2020

This is one of most interesting and complete thread about SAAF watches.
Now, I would present my Lemania 5012, just added to my militar watch collection.

I think this is the correct bezel, with fonts different than rehaut
The engraving is very light and the picture showed is the best I could take.
The inner backcase shows the 2 reference numbers.

eugeneandresson · Feb 20, 2020

@fortuneteller Looks all good to me (well loved, all original, untampered). I am glad to see Stefan cleaned up the touched-up bezel (most probably very easily). A stunning one...can't believe it hung around for so long. Congratulations and WIGH 👍

fortuneteller · Feb 20, 2020

eugeneandresson
@fortuneteller Looks all good to me (well loved, all original, untampered). I am glad to see Stefan cleaned up the touched-up bezel (most probably very easily). A stunning one...can't believe it hung around for so long. Congratulations and WIGH 👍

Thanks, Eugene. So did you know Stefan (the seller) and this watch?

eugeneandresson · Feb 20, 2020

fortuneteller
Thanks, Eugene. So did you know Stefan (the seller) and this watch?

I have not met him (yet!), but he is a member here (and an 'ursmidur', which is Icelandic for 'watchmaker'), and it was listed here. He always has killer watches...

matthewt · Mar 10, 2020

Ive just completed a comprehensive article on the Lemania 5012 SAAF. It covers EVERYTHING from Prototypes, caseback engraving, anomolies and even hand colours. Im now busy with the "all the details" on the Lemania 1872 SAAF. Hope you all enjoy the read!

https://origintime.co.za/the-saaf-lemania-5012/

Ingenieur866 · Sep 7, 2020

eugeneandresson
@matthewt here is I guess the source of that information ...

Hi,
That log of SAAF watch serial numbers is superb info. Do you, or any of your contacts have access to information for AF9351-AF9400. If you have and can share it then I hope to be able to share some more information back for your forum. Regards

eugeneandresson · Sep 7, 2020

Hi @Ingenieur866

Thanks for the thread ressurection 😀

I Ingenieur866
Do you, or any of your contacts have access to information for AF9351-AF9400.

I have not seen any 'official' information on these older ones.

By what I have seen and shared/recorded with fellow collectors, AF numbers 87XX ~ 91XX are white dialed Lemania monopusher SAAFs (we could only find 5 of them on the internet!) ... and then about 20 or so of the Lemania 1872 SAAFs in the AF range 101XX ~ 110XX ...

I would thus assume your AF9351-AF9400 would be one of the black dialed twin register Lemania 1872's (or maybe even the white dial monopushers)? Feel free to PM me 👍

Ingenieur866 · Sep 7, 2020

eugeneandresson
Hi @Ingenieur866

Thanks for the thread ressurection 😀

I have not seen any 'official' information on these older ones.

By what I have seen and shared/recorded with fellow collectors, AF numbers 87XX ~ 91XX are white dialed Lemania monopusher SAAFs (we could only find 5 of them on the internet!) ... and then about 20 or so of the Lemania 1872 SAAFs in the AF range 101XX ~ 110XX ...

I would thus assume your AF9351-AF9400 would be one of the black dialed twin register Lemania 1872's (or maybe even the white dial monopushers)? Feel free to PM me 👍

Hi,
The watch is civilian model International Watch Company reference 2612 - (the military version was the famous Mark 11 as principally used by the RAF but in much smaller numbers by the Australian & New Zealand airforces etc. Civilian ones were used by the BOAC for navigators & captains & a much smaller number dold to the public. This one is for sale by an Austrian watch shop on Chrono24. Search for
'IWC Fliegeruhr MKXI AF9373'. The inner case back has civilian markings including the IWC case number. The movement has no military arrow on it. The movement number dates it to 1966.
Regards

eugeneandresson · Sep 7, 2020

I Ingenieur866
Hi,
The watch is civilian model International Watch Company reference 2612 - (the military version was the famous Mark 11 as principally used by the RAF but in much smaller numbers by the Australian & New Zealand airforces etc. Civilian ones were used by the BOAC for navigators & captains & a much smaller number dold to the public. This one is for sale by an Austrian watch shop on Chrono24. Search for
'IWC Fliegeruhr MKXI AF9373'. The inner case back has civilian markings including the IWC case number. The movement has no military arrow on it. The movement number dates it to 1966.
Regards

Thanks 😀 Yeah, whipped open 'British Military Timepieces' by K.Knirim, and there it was, overlapping the white dial SN's (i.e. AF86XX and AF92XX). So either these were issued in parallel or there is chaos in the AF number assignment...or both. I honeslty think this information is buried somewhere ... I sincerely hope someone has it, and it comes to light.

matthewt · Sep 8, 2020

I Ingenieur866
Hi,
That log of SAAF watch serial numbers is superb info. Do you, or any of your contacts have access to information for AF9351-AF9400. If you have and can share it then I hope to be able to share some more information back for your forum. Regards

eugeneandresson
Hi @Ingenieur866

Thanks for the thread ressurection 😀

I have not seen any 'official' information on these older ones.

By what I have seen and shared/recorded with fellow collectors, AF numbers 87XX ~ 91XX are white dialed Lemania monopusher SAAFs (we could only find 5 of them on the internet!) ... and then about 20 or so of the Lemania 1872 SAAFs in the AF range 101XX ~ 110XX ...

I would thus assume your AF9351-AF9400 would be one of the black dialed twin register Lemania 1872's (or maybe even the white dial monopushers)? Feel free to PM me 👍

eugeneandresson
Thanks 😀 Yeah, whipped open 'British Military Timepieces' by K.Knirim, and there it was, overlapping the white dial SN's (i.e. AF86XX and AF92XX). So either these were issued in parallel or there is chaos in the AF number assignment...or both. I honeslty think this information is buried somewhere ... I sincerely hope someone has it, and it comes to light.

Hi, im currently busy with two other articles on the Lemania 2220 and the IWC MK11, but info and examples of SAAF versions are proving difficult to come by. I have found Longines with AF numbers in the 7800's (Then possibly re-issued 102XX), IWC's with AF numbers in the 8600's and Lemania 2220's with 8700's-9100's. All Lemania 1872's are 10XXX's, so this does leave a bit of a gap between say 9200 and 10139 (The earliest 1872 that i have found). Unfortunately i haven't found any physical documentation accounting for this. There were also flight instruments that i have found with numbers 11XXX. As i haven't focused much on the instruments and their numbers, i will ask around a bit and try to get an idea of what may possibly lie in the "dead zone" of 9200 and 10100........

matthewt · Sep 8, 2020

Just a few pics i took recently of these lovely SAAF Lemania watches.......

Slevin kelevra · Feb 11, 2022

Love this thread!
Recently picked up a 7a28 7040 and would like to find a rubber strap like the one fitted to the OP’s watch.

Now, the strap itself looks like many generic rubber straps you see online but what I find interesting is that the 7a case has rather unique lugs which mean the distance between the lug holes and the case is very small. This means that the majority of traditional straps and NATOs simply do not fit as they are too thick.

I have been able to fit some extremely thin straps purely as a test but I simply can’t see how any rubber straps would be as thin as the unlined leather and canvas straps I’ve found that fit.

Other than buying a traditional rubber strap and trying to modify it, I’m not sure what to do.

The look I’m after is the first pic and the other pics are my test strap, hopefully they show how small the distance between the case and the lug holes are..

A place for SAAF's (South African Air Force pilot's watch thread)

eugeneandresson

matthewt

eugeneandresson

matthewt

matthewt

obstando

eugeneandresson

eugeneandresson

fortuneteller

eugeneandresson

fortuneteller

eugeneandresson

matthewt

Ingenieur866

eugeneandresson

Ingenieur866

eugeneandresson

matthewt

matthewt

Slevin kelevra

Similar threads

Seamaster 120m 166.073 IDF air force

Bad bargain but satisfied in the end | IWC Pilot’s Watch Chronograph Mechaquartz

Omega Seamaster 1967 Gold Plated - Seeking Restoration Advice for Damaged Lugs on Inherited Watch

I love all my Omegas, but there is not one watch I would buy as a starter for my older grandchildren

OMEGA De Ville 1342 - “An elegant dress watch, for a more civilised age.”

Looking for details on a vintage omega seamaster watch