A Mitsukoshi Dilemma

Posts
4
Likes
3
Hi all, I have a dilemma about my Mitsukoshi Speedmaster.

Let's say an original 3570.31 purchased in 2004 had an incident (e.g. water damage) in 20 years of its life that led to Omega replacing the original dial with a service dial during overhaul / repair. The watch is still a real ref 3570.31, and Omega is the one who performed the swap, but now the watch is completely indistinguishable from the mods since they also use oem service dials (lost the subtle differentiators that original dial had vs service dials).

The value that market puts on a 3570.31 is that it's an original Mitsukoshi Speedmaster and not some common aftermarket mod, so how should the fact that Omega swapped the original dial out for service dial during overhaul affect its market value? Obviously there are plenty of examples of vintage Rolex references that lost a chunk of their market value because of service dials, but I'm not sure what, if any, impact this should have on a 3570.31.

I would like to believe that this is still worth far more than what the aftermarket mods are valued at, but slightly lower than an all-original 3570.31. At the end of the day, it still looks fantastic, and Omega can confirm that it is indeed a Mitsukoshi Limited (too bad they stopped providing archive extracts, I would very much like to get one).

What I tell myself is that it's still a 3570.31, and that since it was Omega that performed the swap (which they would never do for a non Mitsukoshi Speedmaster overhaul), the value of originality is still intact to some degree though not the same as having all-original parts. I also tell myself to just enjoy the watch as I have done so for many years without worrying so much about market value, but given the rarity of this watch it's hard to ignore the resale value completely.

What do you guys think?
 
Posts
5,522
Likes
9,437
For me personally, it would have a big impact on what I would be willing to pay. The value of the Mitsukoshi is in the dial. The service dials, which were used here and there for modifying normal Speedmasters, have a much lower street value. I would value your watch a bit more than a regular Speedmaster modded with a Mitsu service dial, but not near a full original Mitsukoshi.
 
Posts
1,981
Likes
2,144
I agree with black talon, the watch is unfortunately worth only a touch more than the mods. I wouldn't pay anything near original mitsu value for it.

That said, the mods are incredible watches, and should be a joy to wear forever. No reason to fret about the value unless you are selling.
 
Posts
6,190
Likes
21,194
Here's my opinion, fwiw.

I value an original significantly higher than a mod, and I love my mod. Value, however, doesn't always translate neatly into money. But relative to a modded watch, an original should be more money.

I also still consider an original with a service dial to still be an original. But as you said, any original with a service dial is devalued. I still find it attractive, but it's monetary value diminished.

How much money has it devalued? Not sure. Maybe halfway between a mod and a fully original? In some respects, the mods may hold up the monetary value of a service dial original.

I have a modded Apollo 35th, so that says something about where I'm coming from. I wanted a Mitsubishi but they weren't available.

 
Posts
1,981
Likes
2,144
Here's my opinion, fwiw.

I value an original significantly higher than a mod, and I love my mod. Value, however, doesn't always translate neatly into money. But relative to a modded watch, an original should be more money.

I also still consider an original with a service dial to still be an original. But as you said, any original with a service dial is devalued. I still find it attractive, but it's monetary value diminished.

How much money has it devalued? Not sure. Maybe halfway between a mod and a fully original? In some respects, the mods may hold up the monetary value of a service dial original.

I have a modded Apollo 35th, so that says something about where I'm coming from. I wanted a Mitsubishi but they weren't available.

Agreed 100%. Every time we discuss values, "those are service hands"/etc is always significant and reduces the value. It ends up being up to the market of course, but IMO on something as significant and unique as the original Mitsu watch/dial is going to be a majority of the extra value.

That said, Id wear /love the crap out of a mod, service, original, or even your modded 35th 😀
 
Posts
4
Likes
3
Is there a deterministic way to identify a service dial vs original dial? Other than service records obviously
 
Posts
3,388
Likes
8,939
Is there a deterministic way to identify a service dial vs original dial? Other than service records obviously
Have you read this thread? Your question can be answered here.
 
Posts
6,190
Likes
21,194
Have you read this thread? Your question can be answered here.

After rereading that thread, I'm still not clear on or convinced of a difference between a service dial and the first iteration.

The author of the linked thread identified a slight difference in the Swiss at the bottom and also the width at dial edge. It wasn't clear to me that the width was due to the dial or to the cases they were installed in. Also, the Swiss difference was so slight I would want to see more examples to know if it was a variable in a few manufactured dials versus all the dials in two distinct batches (i.e. first release versus later service.) Regardless, the differences were slight from what I could see.
 
Posts
4
Likes
3
After rereading that thread, I'm still not clear on or convinced of a difference between a service dial and the first iteration.

The author of the linked thread identified a slight difference in the Swiss at the bottom and also the width at dial edge. It wasn't clear to me that the width was due to the dial or to the cases they were installed in. Also, the Swiss difference was so slight I would want to see more examples to know if it was a variable in a few manufactured dials versus all the dials in two distinct batches (i.e. first release versus later service.) Regardless, the differences were slight from what I could see.
That’s what I thought as well, the Swiss is obviously not the same in the author’s example but without examining multiple samples of original dials I wouldn’t be so confident about it being a definitive differentiator. Looking at some of the original (or claiming to be original) and mod mitsukoshis for sale, there are mods with more bottom spacing and originals with less spacing than others.
 
Posts
339
Likes
437
FWIW, IMO if you don't disclose the dial was changed during service, hardly anyone can tell a difference. Maybe a few experts gathered here, but I dare to estimate only a few saw two original watches side by side to assess the manufacturing tolernces. Hence the many modded watches sold at a premium. If Omega ever opens the EotA, your watch will show as genuine. So it depends on your consciousness.
 
Posts
339
Likes
437
However, if I were the buyer and knew about the swap, I would value it the same as any other modded watch, i.e., basic speedy + ~1.5 k for the dial. Omega technicians in a service center do not have golden hands and they used the very same dial that all the modded watches have. As absurd as it is, it is no longer a collector-grade piece IMO.
 
Posts
7,680
Likes
14,204
However, if I were the buyer and knew about the swap, I would value it the same as any other modded watch, i.e., basic speedy + ~1.5 k for the dial. Omega technicians in a service center do not have golden hands and they used the very same dial that all the modded watches have. As absurd as it is, it is no longer a collector-grade piece IMO.
I disagree that it suddenly becomes just another modded Speedmaster and non-collector desired. It went out of the factory as a genuine Mitsukoshi watch with the appropriate model reference and supporting guarantee card; changing the dial, hands or other parts of the watch does not change that fact, it will forever be a Mitsukoshi watch. As you previously noted, very, very few people would know that Omega changed the dial in a past service for whatever reason. Has the value decreased, it depends on how hard a collector wants to be. There is nothing magical about the original dial that imparts a special property to the watch, Omega has made an untold number of these dials, they are all correct Mitsukoshi dials, even with minute variations due to production tolerances. Look at the recent Snoopy dials that were replaced, did those watches all of a sudden become less desirable to the market, of course not.

IMO we get all too wound up on originality on watches. The word 'irrational' comes to mind.
Edited:
 
Posts
229
Likes
296
Still love my modded one and I’ll never let it go. Bought the dial 15 years ago.