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A dilemma with a watchmaker...

  1. Wryfox Sep 28, 2017

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    Hello Guys, I really need to ask your advice....

    First though i'll need to hide some details about the service provider as he may still make good...but unfortunately not likely.

    Its actually a vintage (1960s) clock but would they still be called a watchmaker? Sorry if there is a different title.

    Sent clock to a professed expert with a web presence but little else, but came recommended.

    Received it back, worked fine(actually perfect) for a few days but then started operating erratically, gaining time quickly, in worsening amounts each day.

    I described the problem and he said I should "attempt to regulate it" to correct the error. He also said due to its age it may not run perfectly and I should not have expected it to.

    I responded by restating the clock's accuracy is erratic, and shouldn't we try to stabilize it first so I know what to regulate to, or is there something I can check to see if it is simple enough to correct and regulating may not be necessary.

    He responded by claiming I was trying to be the expert and to never contact him again.(!)

    As I write this I see how ridiculous this is, but he has been very amicable through the whole process, until the problem came up. It is truly an odd response. I sent him a reply saying I sincerely meant no disrespect, but want to understand why just regulating would solve erratic accuracy. No response so far.

    The problem is I still have an erratic clock.

    I paid to have it serviced to operate in good working order.

    So just a gut check here guys. Today it is running +40secs/day (+27 yesterday) when it was virtually perfect (a few secs) when I received it last week. Pretty sure I'm not off base for asking for a resolution, even though it is a vintage clock.

    In full disclosure, the clock was not running when I sent it to him, but he had it for two months to work on it and make it work right. He claimed all was good when he shipped it back. In fact he said it had only needed a cleaning, no parts.

    Big question, IF I attempt to regulate it, I fear if I later attempt to get my money back(paypal), he may come back and say I touched it and therefore I caused the problem, or it voids his warranty(1 year).

    Also, the box was pretty banged up when it arrived, but the clock was ok and it ran fine for several days so I thought all was good until the problem came up. He is not claiming the issue was due to shipping damage(at least not yet).

    Also, at the moment I'm losing confidence that it can be fixed even if I sent it back, because I don't understand the reasoning for his recommended course of action. If I'm wrong about that, I'd love you guys to tell me so.

    I do not have much exposure to watch/clockmakers, so I bring it here for comment as to next steps. All I want is a good running clock, but if he truly goes silent I think I will have to get the money back.
     
    Edited Sep 28, 2017
  2. Canuck Sep 28, 2017

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    Show us a picture of the movement of your clock. Perhaps then it might be possible to suggest a solution. Did the guy tell you what all he did to repair the clock?
     
  3. Wryfox Sep 28, 2017

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    It's an Atmos. He said bellows were fine, just needed a cleaning. He also said the usual problem is the mainspring if it isn't running, which was the case. It's the only place on the clock that is lubricated and I understand the lube dries up over time and causes the spring to stick. Otherwise he said it was in good shape and running well. No parts needed. JLC says it would take 600yrs of running to equal the wear of a STD timepiece...so I tend to believe him the mech is good. I suspect something has loosened, either not tightened enough during reassembly or jostled in shipment. That's why I think it may be simple. It's a shame his reaction was what it was .
     
  4. Canuck Sep 28, 2017

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  5. Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Sep 28, 2017

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    There is 1 guy to do those imho.


    But are you leveled correctly? The bubble may be off. 45 seconds off on an atmos is pretty extreme.


    This is how to level without the bubble.
     
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  6. Wryfox Sep 29, 2017

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    Thanks Foo, this is precisely how it was leveled, and has not changed since being placed into position.
     
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  7. Wryfox Sep 29, 2017

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    Thanks Canuck, good stuff. I fully expected there to be settling in and adjustment. It was consistent for several days then suddenly started running fast and progressively worse. The error is now almost at the extreme range of adjustment possible, which is +- 50secs/day. I am waiting for it to stabilize before attempting any adjustment so just being told to start adjusting it on the fly didn't make sense.

    As per the link, 30sec a month is reasonable and I agree. Quite frankly, any more than that would be fairly tedious to adjust time frequently as it has a heavy glass cover with pin latches that have to be removed carefully to access hands.
     
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  8. frederico Sep 29, 2017

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    It doesn't sound like he serviced it, just gave it a clean perhaps.

    Perhaps something became loose in transit? If he doesn't know you he could suspect that your also up to something strange. Personally I'd send it to someone else to repair.
     
  9. WhatYourWatchSay Sep 29, 2017

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    I really hate when repairers say that.
     
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  10. Wryfox Sep 29, 2017

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    Its tough to say if something came loose..that's what I was asking the watchmaker to advise on before he went silent.

    BTW, I get that we all need to take care of ourselves, but I was straight up with this fellow from the beginning, and I did ask alot of questions as I did not know much about the process(what is involved in his service,how to package and ship, how long will it take, what did he find when he was done, etc) and was genuinely interested in this clock and how it works. I even provided him a recent excellent article that he was not aware of. A good discussion actually up til the point I thought there was a problem, then his attitude changed 180deg instantly. Still radio silence.
     
  11. frederico Sep 29, 2017

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    Honestly it takes a particular kind of person to be a watch repairer. It's possible that he's deep in to some repair or other, or just lacks customer service skills.. why not chalk it up to experience and look for someone with whom you, erm, click? :whistling:
     
  12. blubarb Oct 3, 2017

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    You paid by PP, correct? As long as it wasn't F & F then open a dispute/claim as Item Significantly Not As Described (SNAD), claim a refund and then send to someone else. Why be put in a position where you have to second guess your own thinking and commonsense on the matter!
     
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  13. Wryfox Oct 3, 2017

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    Its looking this
    Its looking that way, yes, and still no response from servicer.

    Last 6 days:
    +22
    +52
    +7
    +39
    +27
    +4

    There is no stability in the accuracy to make an adjustment. Given the fact that he said it was in good shape..just a cleaning, I believe he will stand behind the "it's old, don't expect it run well" argument. I might believe it with a different type of clock, but an atmos has virtually no wear its mechanism runs so slow. Even JLC says 600yrs in an atmos equals a service interval in a regular clock. The fact that it ran within a few seconds for 5 days before it went erratic tells me something is wrong. When presenting the servicer with this and a simple question on what can I check to help investigate, he went silent. If I were to fathom a guess, it's that maybe it wasn't quite right and he knew it but he can no longer get parts, therefore he just cleaned it up and sent it back.

    I'm happy its running vs not running but if it can't keep time its useless. Its a major pain to adjust time with heavy glass cover and latch pins to remove to get to hands and adjustments. I have it on a wall mount which makes it even more difficult as I have to get a stepladder to do anything with it.
     
  14. Wryfox Oct 13, 2017

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    So here's what I learned about Paypal. If you lie through your teeth, you win.

    I presented an honest case about a poor running clock received from this clockmaker.

    As of today it is running nearly one hour fast, after two weeks since attempting to regulate it (placing at farthest adjustment for regulation in an attempt to correct fast running).

    All other atmos experts I have talked to agreed this clockmaker made an error reassembling the clock.

    In fact one expert graciously walked me through several checks of the clock to examine its operation (the kind of steps the original servicer should have done). I shared my observations with him and he said the balance rotation(amplitude in watch language) was way off, and could only have happened during reassembly by the servicer. In addition, no good servicer ever would have missed this as its a basic step in the assembly process. He said it will run fast and erratic no matter what I do. He also confirmed shipping could not have caused this(ie bumping or shake).

    The clockmaker lied through his teeth that I must have caused the problem when my only actions were to set it up perfectly in a stable level location from his instructions exactly. Once set up, I never touched the clock except to move regulator lever per his instructions to correct error. I even sent him a picture of the setup and he said it looked great!

    He won by the argument saying that its an old clock and at least he got it running. Crook.

    This is an $8000 JLC clock (in todays $), not a beat up cuckoo clock.

    How would any of you feel if you had a pre moon speedy serviced and it ran this poorly just to hear the watchmaker say, "hey at least I got it running for you?" That's how I feel today. Of course the people at Paypal aren't experts but could they possibly believe that argument?

    Any advice on next steps?
     
    Edited Oct 13, 2017
  15. trackpad Oct 13, 2017

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    Yep. Or at least there should be something said up-front, right? Like "Hey, I've looked at this piece, and I can make these [very expensive] repairs, BUT given X, Y, and Z I cannot be sure it will help or ever really run as it should, ...much less keep time, etc."

    But that usually doesn't happen.
     
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  16. jumpingsecond Oct 13, 2017

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    Did you use your credit card to pay via paypal? If so you may be able to try them with a complaint about the sale.
     
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  17. Wryfox Oct 13, 2017

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    Thanks, and yes I've started that process, but its the paypal mastercard I used so they may honor the paypal claim decision. I wish I had used a different credit card now. Lesson learned. I suspect this guy has been through this before and knows what to say.

    Bottom line I got screwed.

    BTW, one of the experts (I have learned is THE foremost expert (and yes I should have used him)) told me this guy is a disgrace to the profession and I should expose him as such as it makes all the Atmos guys look bad. Apparently it is a VERY small community, and he is known. He has a big website and some youtube videos (though with shitty out of focus production). Otherwise, he is virtually a ghost outside of his website, not even on BBB, Yelp etc listings.

    In can find no discussion boards of any kind for this clock, so it was virtually impossible to find out who is good or not.

    Rose and champagne up front..."of course I can help you, I'm the expert...I've done hundreds of these"

    Oh the warning signs I missed....a notice to all that when you don't know much about a subject, its easy to be fooled.
     
  18. trackpad Oct 13, 2017

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    Another warning – there are very few true experts that talk like this. "I'm the expert...I've done hundreds of these" ...not that it was a direct quote, just saying. True experts usually let their work and their clients do the speaking for them.
     
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  19. Wryfox Oct 13, 2017

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    Like I suspected, JLC is clamping down on independents, which is why I think he needed parts but couldn't get them, so he just cleaned it up and sent it back to me. This is all he does so if he is denied parts, he is getting desperate to keep business.
     
  20. Wryfox Oct 13, 2017

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    To educate others, one of the huge warning signs I found out was when a true expert asked me "how does the movement look?" I got a flashlight out and looked closer, I told him it has a white residue on many of the parts. His heavy sigh said volumes. He told me that is classic amateur work as the atmos has a protective coating on the movement parts that is easily damaged by ultrasonic cleaning.

    I took pictures of the clock when I bought it, some close up, and yup no issue with white residue on the movement before I sent it.

    The good news is he said I can wipe it off carefully with q-tips but it just proves the servicer didn't know what he was doing. Standard clock parts can sit in an ultrasonic virtually forever, but Atmos parts only about 30 seconds.

    Additionally, always google a company's address to see where they are. I did that with this guy and its an apartment complex. Another lesson learned.

    Edit: I called Paypal anyway and vented to high heaven about this, and despite paypal saying everywhere that their decisions are final, they actually do have an appeal process that will allow it to be reviewed at a higher level. So stay tuned....
     
    Edited Oct 13, 2017
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