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  1. Aaron Shapiro Jun 1, 2014

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    Hey Guys,

    One of my pretty early posts here, I am fairly new to watches, and relatively new to Omega... A little less than a year ago I bought a 2234.50 SMP GMT, it wasn't really the watch I wanted, but it was close, and I have enjoyed wearing it. Today I have the opportunity to "trade up" into a 44.25mm Speedmaster Pro Co-Axial. The Speedmaster is the watch I have wanted, I like Chronometers, I like the moonwatch-ness of it... ILOVE the display back and Sapphire crystal. However, it has the 3313B movement. I didn't know anything about it, perhaps I foolishly assumed all was well with all things Omega... However upon a flippant googling of it, I came across a few negative reviews, mixed in with people saying that they've had no problems...for years...

    My question, should I be concerned with this movement? Should I just strap the watch on my wrist and not worry about it? Should I reconsider my purchase and look into doing something different (I wouldn't back out on my trade up, but perhaps sell the Speedy relatively quickly...)?

    I want to wear this watch and enjoy it, but the internet has a way of causing some doubts... Are the posts of people having trouble with the 3313B movement people with axes to grind, or is this movement truly a lemon?

    Please excuse my in-expierence in the watch-world, and I appreciate some guidance.

    -Aaron
     
  2. Mothra Jun 2, 2014

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    Aaron, I bought a 3313b'ed Speedmaster new - I've had no issues at all with it over that time, except when the chrono minute hand stopped advancing a little while ago (I suspect a loose hand, nothing sinister). However, Archer is performing its first service and offered me the opportunity to spend hundreds of extra dollars upgrading it to prevent the problems from ever occurring. I couldn't say no, and al is doing the work for me. So you might want to think about wether you'd factor this cost into a service or would be ok without....
     
  3. Northernman Lemaniac Jun 3, 2014

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    There has been a lot of rubbish written on the 3313. Mostly uninformed "wannabe" experts (aka fanboys) that has had loads of little informed opinions stated. The truth is that the early 3313 movements had some design issues that Omega later addressed.
    The 3313B was already much improved to address these issues. Later iterations seems to be rock solid from what I have seen.
    I own one myself as well (Since 2009) and it has worked perfectly for the whole time!
     
  4. Mothra Jun 3, 2014

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    Anders, I agree with what you say - I am curious though; if you send your 3313B in for service and someone offers you the official Omega upgrade to convert from 2 level coaxial to 3 level at a cost of $500ish, would you do it?
     
  5. Northernman Lemaniac Jun 3, 2014

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    I do not really know. Most likely I would ask around OF;)!
     
  6. Mothra Jun 3, 2014

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    The point I'm somewhat laboriously and poorly trying to make is if this is an upgrade a prospective buyer might want then it's worth being aware there's a potential $500 difference in first service cost between a 3313B and a 3313C (which is a three level coaxial). Whether it's necessary or not is a completely different question, but even though, like you I had no issues, I suspect most WIS would struggle to turn it down. :) Its not a huge but still significant amount of money relative to the value of these watches and worth being aware of.

    Its my 3313B (soon to be C) in my Avatar, BTW.
     
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  7. Aaron Shapiro Jun 3, 2014

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    I thought about this, my hope is... Firstly and foremost that I get the watch and it runs like a champ no second thoughts about it. But if there is going to be a problem, that I get a year or two of wear out of it, then I'll send it in for a service and get it upgraded to a 3-level Co Axial C movement. The comforting thing I have found so far, is most of these threads talking about their problems with the 3313B movement are dated in 2009 or earlier, and my watch was manufactured in 2010, it shouldn't be one of the earlier examples that had problems....Hopefully.

    -A
     
  8. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jun 3, 2014

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    There are really 2 separate sets of issues with these watches. One related to the escapement, and the other related to all watches using this F. Piguet base movement, so this includes 3113, 3200, 3202, 3203, 3205, 3301, 3303, and 3313.

    The co-axial models have the issue of the 2 level compared to 3 level co-axial escapement, and in this case the 3 level is more reliable. The 3 level simply eliminates the potential for build of the sticky black residue on the intermediate escape wheel, like this:

    [​IMG]

    Note this is just to illustrate what this looks like, and this was from a 2500C movement.

    Of course none of the Swiss lever versions of this movement suffer from this problem, but there is a set of upgrades that were done to these over the years to solve other operational issues. These include things as small as replacing screws so they are less likely to snap, to replacing some levers and parts in the setting area. These upgrades were finalized in 2008, so any watch movement actually made after that should have all these upgrades done.

    If not, they are not terribly expensive to do, and if I have a 3301 come in the shop, it usually has some, but not all of the upgrades done, so I typically have to replace a couple of parts.

    The movement does have a bit of a bad reputation but IMO that really isn't deserved.

    Cheers, Al
     
  9. Aaron Shapiro Jun 3, 2014

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    Archer, I appreciate that post. My watch was made in 2010, so hopefully I'll have no issues. If i do, that's what Omega Qualified Watchmakers are for ;-)

    -a
     
  10. amblin Jun 9, 2014

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    it's the same movement in my De Ville GMT Chrono. I belive the most up to date would be the 'C' Version but not too much of a difference. I like the movement and it's performing very well since I brought it new. The only thing I disliked was the crowded , vertical (modular) design , and it's too small in a 44mm case.

    Regarding the movement itself, it was a custom made modular Chrono by F.Piguet especially for Omega and had some troubled early days. But IMO it's higher grade and better decorated than the popular ETA 7750 or similar which found its way into many earlier chrono Omega (such as speedy day date) and some IWC 's. Plus countless other ......LAZY brands, IWC, are you listening?
     
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  11. shane0mack Jun 10, 2014

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    :D
     
  12. Northernman Lemaniac Jun 12, 2014

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    To compare the 3313 with the 7750 is like comparing a Bugatti to a Hummer. The finely finished and lovely designed co-axial technological marvel of the 3313 is really in a completely different league! The 7750 is robust, but most other comparison factors should end there.
    I love chronographs, and I have collected many. The only caliber I have sold on, and not replaced, was a 7750. It really is not a very nice movement. Robust, yes! Nice. NO!
     
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  13. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jun 12, 2014

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    Hello,

    Just to clarify, the 3313 and related family of calibers are most certainly not modular chronographs, but fully integrated chronographs. The 3313C is the most recent movement, and in terms of the co-axial escapement there is actually quite a big difference - the C is 3 level where the A and B are 2 level. The implications of that I have described above.

    Comparing the decoration on the typical Omega chronometer grade 7750 versions they used in a Speedmaster date type watch, and the 3313C, they are both decorated to about the same level, and both pretty poorly if you get right down to it. A good portion of the plates on both movements are completely unfinished, lack of polished anglage or perlage, etc. As most companies at this level do, they "cheat" like crazy and only finish what can be seen when you look through the sapphire case back or take the solid case back off - even a Rolex 3135 is finished miles better than either of these are.

    Both movements use a number of fairly "flimsy" stamped parts (George's big beef with this movement), and clear design compromises were taken on the Piguet under the barrel bridge to keep the movement as thin as it is - I don't have a problem with these personally, but they are often cited as a technical weakness on these movements, even though I have personally never had to replace these parts (and yes some of the same compromises were made on the 8500 and 9300). From a 3313:

    [​IMG]

    If this area is oiled properly during service, then there really is no issue in my view, but it does require a much more generous amount of oil here than what any watchmaker would use typically on a watch, so my feeling is they are often under-lubricated by those not familiar with the watch.

    The F. Piguet based movement is certainly different, but I would hesitate to call it unequivocally better. You would have to define "better" in some concrete terms to really get to the heart of any comparison in my opinion. The cam switching and horizontal coupling of the 7750 are considered to be more crude than the column wheel and vertical clutch in the Piguet movement, but personally the love of column wheels is sort of irrational to me from a technical standpoint, so the technical advantage in the systems used comes down to the vertical clutch, compared with the horizontal coupling and the oscillating pinion in the 7750. The vertical clutch has some advantages for sure, but in the Piguet family of movements the main chronograph runner can't be cleaned or serviced, so if it is very dirty or fails it must be replaced. This is similar to the Seiko 6139/6139 series, and with those the runners are very difficult to find these days, so at some point they will be scarce for the Piguet movements as well, where the 7750 parts will be everywhere for my lifetime and longer I suspect.

    The 7750 is every bit as accurate, efficient in winding, and robust as the Piguet movement, and personally I think it exceeds the Piguet movements in all these respects (okay in winding they are a wash, as both are very good). It is far easier to service and get parts for the 7750 than the Piguet movement.

    I have said this before many times, but the 7750 in all grades I see on my bench is consistently on average the most accurate movement I service, and that includes all movements from all brands. It was never designed to be a high end movement, but the fact that is has ended up in many higher end watches to me is a testament to it's performance and capabilities.

    I am far from being a hater of the Piguet movements, and I have defended it against unrelenting attacks on other forums, but honestly if I had to choose, it would be a 7750 every time based on the technical aspects of the movement. That's not to say the Piguet movement is not a good movement, but I don't personally think it is leaps and bounds above the 7750.

    Just my $0.02 Canadian.

    Cheers, Al
     
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  14. Northernman Lemaniac Jun 12, 2014

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    Hi Al,
    Your input is both informative and clear (as always:thumbsup:)!
    My reason for choosing the 3313 over the 7750 is first and foremost the lever escapement. Perhaps the 7750 standard swiss lever is well proven and put well in use, but the Daniels designed co-axial design appeals to me from a technical point of view.
    You have also listed the column wheel design (I am no "sucker" for these, but they do look cooler than the cams:oops:...).
    The 3313 is also a thinner design.
    Parts of the 7750 has, from what I have learned, been designed rather cheaply as well using steel wire and other "cost cutting" measures.
    Personally I also did never get comfortable with the sound of the autowinder of the 7750. It really is noisy (even fully serviced). My history in 7750 ownership comes from a Breitling cal B13, but I have heard the Omega ones are just as noisy!
    Cheers!
    A
     
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  15. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jun 13, 2014

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    No worries - everyone has their preferences. I won't get into Swiss lever v co-axial, as I don't want to spill the Kool Aid, but on the other points you make some follow-up comments:

    The column wheel v cam is really a puzzling thing for me to understand, but perhaps the fact that it "looks cool" is enough justification for it's preference with collectors. Both do the same job of switching the functions of the chronograph, and the cam is more robust and therefore in my eyes more reliable, but...

    I'm not sure what you are referring to specifically with cost cutting measures on the 7750, but pretty much every watch at this price level has wire springs in it somewhere, and yes that includes the 3313. The 3313 also has flat parts stamped out of sheet metal, as George would tell you if he were here. Unless you are buying something much more high end than this, perhaps with the Geneva seal (wire springs not allowed to get the seal) then you will have cheap looking stamped parts inside the watch. There's no getting around it at this price level, unless of course you go vintage. I've worked on some lovely vintage Longines manual winds for example that have wonderfully made clicks machined from solid stock, rather than cheap wire springs like the 3313, 321, 861, 1120, 2500, etc., etc., etc. all have inside them.

    Yes the 7750 winding can be noisy. Some people hate the "wobble" and some love it - personal preference on that one I guess.

    I honestly think the biggest knock anyone can make on the 7750 is that it is very common, and to me that proves it's success in the market.

    Cheers, Al
     
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  16. Northernman Lemaniac Jun 13, 2014

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    Hi Al,

    Firstly I have to say I am very pleased to find that George have not found a place here at OF: As much as I recognize that the man has a lot of knowledge, I have always had issues with his attitude and narrow sight.
    As to your remarks I am listening and learning something new every day!
    For the records I do not list neither the 3313 nor the 7750 as my all time favorites. However in comparison I personally regard the 3313 more the equivalent of a delicate Italian quad cam V8, with the 7750 the American big block V8..
    As a petrolhead I recognize the capabilities of both!
    If I had to choose one of my chronographs to bring into combat it would be none of them. I would take a Lemania 5100 (5012) if I had to choose an automatic, and a CH27 or 15TL if it had to be a HW. It would most likely be a 5100 derivative due to the unsurpassed readability of the minutes recorder.
    Cheers!
    A
     
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  17. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jun 14, 2014

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    I'm glad this is educational for you. It's funny to me that you would have issues with the build of the 7750, yet pick the Lemania 5100 as your favourite.

    Have you seen this movement before in any state of disassembly? It makes the 7750 look like you are working under the bonnet of a Rolls Royce in comparison.

    The 5100 has pretty much everything that people dislike about the 7750, but in a much bigger volume than the 7750 does:

    1 - Wire springs? Check!

    2 - Stamped parts? Check!

    3 - Full of plastic bits? Check! Probably more than any other movement I can think of off hand.

    That central minute counter has a lot of sway with people - they will forgive a lot that they won't tolerate in other movements to get that hand in the middle of the dial...

    Cheers, Al
     
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  18. blackwatch wants tickets to the HyperBole. Jun 14, 2014

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    ::popcorn::
     
  19. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Jun 14, 2014

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    Interesting that some people really love Lemania 5100. I have one in Speedy Mark 4.5 and I haven't been able to see its attraction.
     
  20. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jun 14, 2014

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    A few 5100 pics to illustrate the point...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This movement is very "industrial" in it's construction to put it mildly...

    Cheers, Al