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2nd opinion on dial / hands on ALPINA val23

  1. abrahamovic Aug 16, 2018

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    Hello members,
    as you know or not, I am Alpina watch fan. After long hunt nice Alpina chronograph popped up, val23, marked 943. I am not sure if the hands are correct, because of the colour. I am not collecting watches for decades, your experience would be helpful. Hands are much much brighter than dial. What is your opinion please? Owner says, it is all original, no re-luming. Says, that hands set is original. Thanks for help. I have watch on hold for few hours.
    Tomas

    62b64241-7851-46aa-a90d-5b0e06e436d5.JPG b1eeb781-b123-4dbc-80d8-47bd2b1e71de.JPG fc470cdc-52c6-458d-af53-f68ecb224a7c.JPG
     
  2. Dan S Aug 16, 2018

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    Lovely chronograph. Luminous material can age differently within hands and on the dial, but in this case the difference is so great that I would suspect the hands have been re-lumed at some point. I have no reason to suspect that the hands are incorrect, however. They are a good fit for the watch.
     
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  3. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. Aug 16, 2018

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    Not into the brand but no redial alarms. What are your concerns?
     
  4. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. Aug 16, 2018

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    May have had lume work but who cares? Easily correctable down the road.. lovely old chrono
     
  5. abrahamovic Aug 16, 2018

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    Not afraid about redial. Sure that dial is original.
    I was only concerned about hands:
    1. if they are original / YES / NO
    2. if yes - were thy relumed or not

    seller asks 2200 EUR for it. Alpina is underrated in my eyes. I know the brand from childhood. always liked it. Not much pioneering, not many great designs, but honest and rich history. Thanks for help.
     
  6. abrahamovic Aug 16, 2018

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    found the same dial style btw on hodinkee:
    Screen Shot 2018-08-16 at 19.01.28.png
    the serial is very similar / close = 172.665 on hodinkee and "mine" is 172.531
    so it suggest they are the same period, right?
    this is why i thought the hand style should be the same? or is it possible there might be different styles?
    ...or which hand set is the right one.

    I found "my" style on an old alpina advert from 1959:
    Screen Shot 2018-08-16 at 18.11.35.png
     
  7. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. Aug 16, 2018

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    Yes original and relumed.
     
  8. abrahamovic Aug 16, 2018

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    maybe a silly question now (but would like to learn), how did you conclude that hands are original? thanks.
     
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  9. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. Aug 16, 2018

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    Seen these hands on other old chrono. They seem to fit. Not much out there to go on. Not scientific just gut. I think this to be older than 59.
     
  10. slique12 Aug 16, 2018

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    The hands shown in the advert are actually similar to the Hodinkee example. The one on yours are more syringe style. But, I have no knowledge of whether Alpina used both styles of hands.
     
  11. abrahamovic Aug 16, 2018

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    yes, that was my simple observation too. thats why was I curious to know why @Larry S thinks/feels that hands might be original.
     
  12. abrahamovic Aug 16, 2018

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    ..and adding also movement picture too:
    3446f9b6-fda2-43a6-8cab-df292191276d.JPG
     
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  13. abrahamovic Aug 16, 2018

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    thanks you all, @Larry S @slique12 @Dan S for input.

    thinking loudly here (aka speculating?)
    I just dont want to make silly purchase.
    I like the watch as is, but the price should reflect the condition, so rather thinking more now as the guy asks over 2500 USD.

    my thoughts:

    1. serial puts it nearly to the same batch as BLACK model on hodinkee.
    As hodinkee model featuring broader (and I would guess) original hands set, should not mine have the same hands style?

    2. i will correct myself = mine has chrono hand + sub second hand in the very same style as 1959 advert.
    so here comes the speculation = if watch comes from 40ties as hodinkee, might chrono hand and sub-second hand changed later with 1959 type?

    3. on contrary = blued chrono hand nicely fit the outer dial ring lettering in blue.
    watch also look solid and compact, as @Larry S said - guts feeling says like it all fits nicely.

    QUESTION:
    any ideas if you have a look on the movement? my amateur eye see no deep scratches, no worn screws, although not able to identify if any replacement parts = but gives over all trustworthy feeling.

    that kind of Alpina is rarely seen, so this is why I take so much thinking on this piece.
    thanks for your patience and help.
     
  14. Dan S Aug 16, 2018

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    I don't think that you are going to find definitive proof that the hands are original. I would turn it around and say that I have no reason to doubt their originality. They are a good fit with the dial and the other hands. Also, the watch appears to be relatively untampered with, e.g. my gut feeling is that the pushers are original, and even possibly the crown. I think it's good. No proof, just my instinct. And sometimes all you can say is that everything looks good and consistent. You don't have as much documentation for relatively obscure brands like this.

    The asking price is optimistic, and unless the case is 37mm or larger, it's wildly optimistic. For most people, this is a nice-looking but generic two sub-dial column wheel chronograph. It's worth owning, but doesn't have the features that drive prices up, e.g. a major brand name, snail-dial, black gilt dial, etc.
     
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  15. Syrte MWR Tech Support Dept Aug 16, 2018

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    I think you have done very good research and answered your own question. And regardless the price is very excessive.
    PS even though 1/ it is a very nice looking watch no matter what and 2/ the price is only a problem if you don’t know what you’re doing. If that’s what you choose it’s another matter.
     
    Edited Aug 16, 2018
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  16. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Aug 16, 2018

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    Hands are likely original, but appear to be relumed.
     
  17. abrahamovic Aug 16, 2018

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    35mm. thought the same on price. was looking recently on NIVADA Chronomaster Aviator Sea Diver, same movement, but 39mm diameter. They range from 1800 to 2600 USD.

    but I agree with @Syrte
    will try to speak to the guy and see if he is willing to go a bit down.
     
  18. Dan S Aug 16, 2018

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    The V23 Nivada Chronomaster asking prices may be in that range, but they don't sell for nearly that much in an auction or between collectors. I just bought one in excellent condition with the broad arrow hands, freshly serviced, for $1550 and sold a slightly less desirable variant in good condition for $1250. You really need to be careful to focus only on the prices of sold watches.
     
  19. abrahamovic Aug 16, 2018

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    interesting to know. or to repeat it to myself again and again. especially when I am coming from a country with pretty limited vintage watches community. So I am mostly left to online shops, ebay or auctions. With auctions I more and more often see problems with authenticity / originality of watches, so lack of trust. And if some honest pieces come up, someone with unlimited budget usually wins. As auction usually makes it global fighting field. Well, not a general truth regarding above mentioned, it just makes online searching more and more time consuming due to high demand and wild offering. For the record - not complaining, I am happy. I am enjoying my learning curve. Also, travelling to other countries is not cheap anyway.

    Read a lot about what you refer to as SELLING BETWEEN COLLECTORS. But never actually experienced it, but thats reason why I am here. Possibilities to meet fellow collectors are here in Slovakia also limited. Funny thing is that, after some time of scrolling through those online prices, you actually get used to them :). Saying that, you would cry out laughing if you knew how much I paid for some of my watches, I guess. Thats also reason why I am here. To educate more and find new friends in watch community.

    Sorry for taking discussion so far from original Alpina. But now I feel crazy to pay 2500 USD for it. No matter how much I want it.
     
  20. Dan S Aug 16, 2018

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    Indeed, you are meeting fellow collectors right now on OF, and as you participate more over time, you will develop relationships. Of course, you can buy from the sales forum here (or on other forums) at any time. Watchrecon.com consolidates many of these listings.