Forums Latest Members

2 New Essential Tools Coming This Month..........

  1. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Feb 17, 2013

    Posts
    5,753
    Likes
    2,903
    I found out collecting watches is not easy task as I expected........
    A lot of homework, practicing eyes on those small fonts , discussions in forum and whatsapp, sleepless night waiting for those ebay ending time,....not mentioning significant dent in wallet.

    That's why supporting tools are critical.........and I welcome two of my new helper in this quest ..........coming this month

    AJTT and a timegrapher

    AJTT & TG MR.jpg

    AJTT does not need anymore introduction:
    AJTT MR.jpg

    Timegrapher is new to me. My watchmaker advised me to buy one for detecting whether a watch need to be serviced/ repaired. I am lucky to find a nice used one from my fellow local collector who does not need it anymore.
    TG MR.jpg

    Well, I have new toys to tinker for coming months......:)
     
  2. dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Feb 17, 2013

    Posts
    26,943
    Likes
    32,628
    Nice, how much did the timegrapher set you back used?
     
  3. MyVintageOmega Feb 17, 2013

    Posts
    926
    Likes
    487
    There is also an APP. now.......demo of the Kello APP. vs an M1, time reading device.
     
    cicindela and SpikiSpikester like this.
  4. MyVintageOmega Feb 17, 2013

    Posts
    926
    Likes
    487
    Also, video on how to use the timegragher........
     
    cicindela and Privateday7 like this.
  5. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Feb 17, 2013

    Posts
    5,753
    Likes
    2,903
    I bought for USD 130 used. One of my collector friend has 'retired' because he felt he already got his ultimate grail. I knew he had this timegrapher, contact him and he is willing to let go.

    This model is the base bottom model. You can find new in china websites for USD 175 + shipping (I think it is for whole sale) or around USD 250 + shipping in US Ebay.
     
  6. Trev The Architect Staff Member Feb 17, 2013

    Posts
    1,892
    Likes
    1,757
    Nice! Following this thread :)
     
  7. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    5,753
    Likes
    2,903
    After tinkering with my timegrapher, now I have questions bugging me.

    Only 2 of my watches that have COSC limit (below 4 s/day variation) one is my Speedy moonwatch (-2 s/day) and the other one is my 70 C case Constellation (-3s/day)
    The other have variation from +11s/day up to -350s/day!!!! Now I need to separate what is acceptable deviation for vintage (below 1980), young timer (1980-2000) and modern (2000 up). So what is considerable normal/ acceptable?
    Say for a non chronometer 1950's caliber 5XX, is 30s/day variation acceptable?

    What other factor like beat error acceptable limit? 0.5ms? 1.0 ms?

    What problem can be detected by this indicators (rate, beat error, amplitude etc)? Oil dry up/ become dirt ? Parts wear down?

    Probably our watchmaker expert Archer, Steve and other could enlighten us, the amateurs..........

    Thanks
     
  8. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    26,438
    Likes
    65,401
    Owning one of these as a collector is like using a 15X loupe to look at your newly purchased watch - you will see things that give you more stress when you should be enjoying your watch....

    It would take a long time to explain the proper use of a timing machine. How to use it to diagnose faults is a skill that can take years to perfect, so not something I can teach you in a forum post really.

    If you watch the video posted it will show you a bit about how to use the machine, but one key thing with these cheap machines he mentions in passing when timing the Seagull. At one point he said the variation in rate is because he is talking, and the machine is picking it up. These cheap Chinese machines are terrible for picking up sounds from the room, so when taking measurements with them, you really need to have the room very quiet. Professional machines don't have this issue.

    Every movement has characteristics that you will need to know to determine if the movement is running to factory specifications. Tolerances for amplitude, beat error, average rates, and positional variation are specified by the factory, and vary from one movement to another in many cases. You will also need to know the lift angle for the movements you are checking in order to determine the correct balance amplitude.

    Now above you talk about "variation" on several watches, but what does that mean? Is that one measurement taken in one position, or a variation across a series of measurements? What positions were checked? What was the state of wind on the watch when the checks were done? Measuring the rate in one position is not really a very useful check unless the watch is obviously running very poorly.

    I am certainly willing to help, but I can't "tell you everything" in one post, so if you want to answer some of the questions I have posted, we can try to narrow things down a bit. Maybe try starting with one watch, and we can take it from there. The Speedmaster would be a good place, so let me know what movement is in your watch, and I can post some timing specifications for you.

    Cheers, Al
     
    SpikiSpikester likes this.
  9. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    5,753
    Likes
    2,903
    Thanks Al,
    Very good points. I wouldn't dream to be able become expert instantly. Just a basic understanding on how to utilize this tool for early warning and screening newly bought vintage/ pre-owned watch.
    As your suggestion I'll record 3 watches in 3 position (0, 90 and 180 degree) with 30 times crown winding. Is it OK?

    Thanks
    HP
     
  10. LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    6,713
    Likes
    18,260
    HP,

    May I suggest for simplicity's sake that you start with one watch as Al suggests and let Al walk you though it? I'm speaking purely from my own self interest, as I am following the thread closely for my own "eddication."
     
  11. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    5,753
    Likes
    2,903
    OK,
    One watch, speedmaster moonwatch.

    HP
     
  12. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    26,438
    Likes
    65,401
    Please pick one watch, and let me know what the movement is inside - we need to have a starting point so I can tell you what positions to check, what the lift angle is, etc.

    Al
     
  13. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    26,438
    Likes
    65,401
    HP - if you want my help, please read my questions carefully and answer them. I don't really have a lot of time to chase you for answers. Please provide the calibre of the movement in your watch.

    Al
     
    Spacefruit likes this.
  14. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    5,753
    Likes
    2,903
    The calibre is 1861, Lemania based movement.
     
  15. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    5,753
    Likes
    2,903
    Sorry Al, I 've just come home from work so it's my trip time when you ask question, no intention to delay answer.
     
  16. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    26,438
    Likes
    65,401

    It's okay, but you have to understand that there are differences in movements - if this was a Cal. 1864 we would be looking at very different requirements than with an 1861.

    So with the Cal. 1861, this is a non-chronometer movement, so as with any Omega non-chronometer movement, the timing checks are done in 3 poistions only for Omega specs (note that for every watch I service, I always check 6 positions at full wind regardless of the movement, but that's just me being picky). When looking at the requirements from Omega, the reference is Work Instruction 28, so these numbers come from that document.

    So this watch beats at 21,600 vph, the lift angle is 50 degrees, the maximum allowed beat error is 0.6 ms. Note that setting the lift angle correctly is quite important, as the balance amplitiude is a calculated value using the lift angle. Rule of thumb is that for every 1 degree error in lift angle, there is a 6 degree error in balance amplitude readings. Most machines default to 52 degrees as this is what Rolex uses, but Omegas can vary quite a lot from that - some as low as 36 degrees, and some as high as 54 degrees.

    The three positions you check for this movement are CH (dial up), 9H (crown down), and 6H (crown left). The first check I do after service is to test the minimum balance amplitude, and this is done at full wind -24 hours. So since you are not able to let the mainspring down, you would need to fully wind the watch, let it run for 24 hours, and then put it on the timing machine. Check it in the three positions above, and the balance amplitude should not be below 190 degrees in any of those three positions. Note that due to frictional losses, the lowest amplitude should always be in a vertical position, so either the crown down or crown left positions.

    So for each position, note down the balance amplitude, average rate, and beat error. So when you are done, you would have 3 readings like this:

    Dial up - 220 degrees, +5 s/d, 0.3 ms
    Crown down - 190 degrees, +1 s/d, 0.2 ms
    Crown left - 195 degrees, +6 s/d, 0.3 ms

    Note that your numbers may be significantly different from these, and these are just examples.

    So how to perform these checks - place the watch on the microphone stand, and Omega states the stabilization time for this movement at 30 seconds, and the measurement time at 20 seconds. This means after you place the watch on the stand, or move the watch from one position to another, you need to leave it for at least 30 seconds to stabilize the readings. I typically use 1 minute for this to be safe. Then you need to take the measurements over a period of 20 seconds, and again I usually use a minute to be safe. So place the watch on the machine dial up to start, let it sit for at least 30 seconds, and when that time is up, start counting off 20 seconds. At the end of 20 seconds look at all the numbers and write them down. Switch to the next position, and then repeat, making sure to let the watch stabilize after each change of position. Please post your results here in this thread.

    When you have completed this check, we can move on to the next series of checks. In the context of a service, if the watch fails to meet this minmum balance amplitude specification, it would have to be disassembled and repaired so it did meet this, or there is not much point in moving on.

    A quick word on balance amplitude, and how most timing machines measure it. As most of you likely know, the balance amplitude is the measure of how far the balance wheel swings. What many people (even some watchmakers) don't fully undestand is how the machine displays this information. As noted this is a calculated value using sounds from the escapement and the lift angle. The bit that eludes most people is that the number displayed on the machine is actually an average. The balance wheels swings in one direction, then reverses and swings in the other direction, and the number displayed is an average of those two readings. So for example the wheel may swing say 270 degrees in one direction, then 280 the other, and the machine will display an average of 275. It's important to understand this when we talk about maximum balance amplitudes later on.

    Cheers, Al
     
  17. Littleroger Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    384
    Likes
    258
    That's easy then !!
     
  18. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    5,753
    Likes
    2,903
    Al, while waiting for your further instruction, I did this test:

    Object: 2001 Speedmaster moonwatch caliber 1861. I wound it 50 times which is around 50% of full power reserve.
    the object.jpg


    The test conducted with the default lift angle of 52 degree. The room condition is quiet.

    First position is horizontal with the dial face up. This is the result:
    horizontal up.jpg

    The second position is vertical, with this result:
    vertical.jpg

    and third position is horizontal with the dial face down. This is the result:
    horizontal down.jpg

    Last, I tested back at horizontal dial face up position. Interestingly now the result is different than the first test position:

    horizontal up 2.jpg

    Hope this is sufficient for first session. If you want test with different condition (e.g lift angle or position) I will repeat it again.

    Many thanks.

    HP
     
  19. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    5,753
    Likes
    2,903
    OK, now my tests above does not use correct procedure. I'll wound my watch full now and conduct the test tomorrow after 24 hour using 50 degree lift angle and the method you describe above.

    Many thanks Al.
     
  20. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 18, 2013

    Posts
    26,438
    Likes
    65,401
    No, not really. I've just given you instructions on how to perform the test. When you have completed them and posted the results I will comment further. Again I'm going to ask that you read my posts carefully, and follow my instructions or we are not going to get very far mate.

    Cheers, Al

    edit - looks like we were typing at the same time - I know you are anxious to learn all this, but one thing you need for watchmaking is patience. Thanks for doing the test again.

    Al