Hello all! This is my first post of what I hope will be many more, as I've been lurking here for some time and have learnt a whole lot because of this great resource. So for that, thank you! This is also my first foray into the vintage watch world, so bear with me... I'm looking at buying a birth year watch, an all-original Speedmaster from 1984 (not exactly 'proper vintage' yet but this is what i want for now) and while I haven't found it yet, one of the watches that I saw initially at a local used watch dealer caught my attention because it has several aspects that confuse me in terms of originality/accurateness. I want to get this straight so i can go talk to the guy and see his take on it as well, but want to be properly informed beforehand. Please note that all my assumptions here are based on research I've gathered from several sources online, including here, so I might also be completely off. So let's me begin with some photos from the seller's site: The seller states that the watch is from 1985. However: - Visually the watch looks very clean (too clean?) and in great condition. Clear crystal with the omega symbol in the middle and signed crown. The hands though, don't seem to have the same patina on the lume as the dial… Is this normal in terms of aging? Shouldn't it all be similarly toned? - The bezel is correct for DN90 but has small Tachymetre letters with the accent over the E. According to the Speedmaster101 site, this should be post 1990. Correct, or is this a regional thing? As i've seen others in Europe with small letters and no accent on the E, being sold as from the 1980s. - The SPEEDMASTER lettering has the more rounded and shorter S and R, which according to Chronomaddox site, should be from around 1989 forward. But with the T SWISS MADE T script at 6... http://chronomaddox.com/speedy_dial_details.html - Caseback number is 145.0022 with a 2nd number 345.0022 (not very clear from pictures), which suggests this is a replacement case. It also has the serial on the 7 o'clock lug which is expected on more modern cases, and not replacement ones… - Both movement and case numbers are #4832XXXX, which according to most tables online is around 1996? (for cal. 861). Shouldn't watches from 1984/1985 should be 45XXXX / 46XXXX range? - It houses a Calibre 863 instead of 861, which I guess would be OK only its a yellow version and 18 jewels. So, judging from this image from the Moonwatch Only book, this movement should be from 1995-1997. As a side note, I also ready on another post that the 18th jewel was in the cal. 863 movement of the ST 145.0808 model introduced in 1980… - Having this movement suggests it is a display back model, which the seller states but when i saw it at the store, and online pictures it had the regular back. Could come with both backs…? - Bracelet appears to be Ref. 1479/812 combination which appears to be from 1992. Shouldn't the correct Ref. for the 1985 model be Ref. 1447.805 or 1450/808 combinations as per http://homepage2.nifty.com/speedsonic/urawaza09.htm ? I did find that there is a model, Apollo XI - Unnumbered Edition (1988-1995), with a similar bracelet as the Ref. 1479/812, with a yellow cal. 863 movement but its a model ST 345.0808… Of course the precious owner could've replaced the bracelet also. Sorry for the long post! I know it's common for Speedmasters to be assembled using parts from different year lots and that serial numbers aren't an exact science, but still, to my untrained eyes, there seems to be a lot of discrepancies here and I just want to make sure what I'm looking at… Thanks in advance for any insight into this! Regards, Lou
just a short info regarding the mov. number. I have sold a 345.0808 some months ago, mov. number was 48 240 ... and acc. extract of Archiv it was produced 17.08.1988.
Are you sure it's an 863 movement? 863 movement should have a metal chrono brake, not delryn as in the movement shot shown.
Hey dennisthemenace, thanks for the reply as well. I hadn't noticed the delryn brake actually! Me personally, am not sure about it being 863, that's what the seller states and I can't tell from the pictures. But i think i can see it stamped eighteen jewels... It doesn't make sense for a display movement to have it, as you stated... This only adds to the mystery! So from what I gather, if this is an 18 jewel 861, shouldn't it be from 1993 onwards? Thanks,
For what it's worth, I believe you are right, but to complicate things the 863 had the extra jewel much earlier. I'm thinking that the seller has got the age and movement of the watch wrong.
This is a possibility! Meanwhile, and further confusing, I found this one from HQ Milton: http://www.hqmilton.com/watches/1984-omega-speedmaster-145.0022-calibre-861 It's 1984 145.0022, cal. 861 that doesn't have the serial on the case, but does have the more rounded Speedmaster script 'S' on the dial, 483XX,XXX serial, small Tachymetre letters with accent over the E and what appears to be a Ref.1499 or 1998 bracelet. The plot thickens...!
Hi, this is a ref. PIC 3590.50 - this dial is 1991-early 1997 - bezel from 1995-2004 - the 1479/812 bracelet from 1989 to 1996 - this is calibre 861 (no cotes de Geneve and Delrin brake) with a s/n range most probably from 1995 my guess is 1995
Hey speedy4ever, thanks for the reply and info. Searched for that PIC # and found a similar one from a past sale at WUS but the seller didn't specify the year (although 4828xxx serial). He does mention its is a cal. 863 but from the pictures I can see 861 and 17jewels, delrin brake etc, which makes me wonder why 2 sellers state something that doesn't seem to be...? But anyway, your numbers are more in tune with what I have gathered from my humble research. Guess all I can do is go ask the seller what's up. Any idea of price range for this piece? The seller is asking around 2900 USD (after Euro conversion) which I find a bit excessive, especially if it isn't what it's supposed to be! But then again, I am a complete novice in this world... Thanks,