Ok picked this 166.041 up from the usual venue for watches of questionable provenance. It was described as totally genuine fully working and fairly recently serviced and cost around $300. I like the idea that it looked modern and quirky and had a clean looking 565 which is a movement I admire and don't have in anything else. I know the blue hand looks wrong but there are examples of auto Geneve from this era which came with the red dynamic hand from the factory so I figured it was worth the risk and not a big fix anyhow. The problem? Now it has arrived I can see that the dial has clearly been retouched, particularly on the indices. The pic below is mine, the one on the listing was of course much less clear! The 565 movement is running really strong with 300+ amplitude in all orientations so it isn't all bad. What are the collective's thoughts. Shall I just reject it or does it have any merit at all?
Hold it, just the good working 565 is worth it. And it looks good! Wear it, could be a real unique piece...
Well yes I could just keep it but it may not get much wear due to the fact that it is to a greater or lesser degree a Franken and I prefer my Omegas to be original or at least constructed of OEM parts. The touch up job on the dial worries me since it could be a total repaint based on a totally different base, such as a silver dialled model. It is a shame as even though it is only 35mm it wears big as it is all dial.
I am curious if anyone thinks the pointed "A" in AUTOMATIC is problematic - I have read that the peaks should be flat. I have a Geneve dial that I have assumed is a redial because of it having pointed "A"s. A watchmaker that supposedly has experience working for an Omega SC from the 70's thinks it's factory original.
Funny. I have this one on the way which I'm fairly certain is original. I've seen these in a variety of colors so I'm not too concerned with the second hand. I agree that yours is a redial. I love the style. I say keep trying to find an original. This one looks more like yours (look at the date window outline).
The second hand on that looks fine to me. The black coordinates with the hour markers and the base of the main hands. I have a 1968 SS Geneve with gold and black furniture schemed the same way. As regards the pointed A, my Geneve has that and the dial is original, so does a 1965 Seamaster of mine. "Omega" is printed not applied in both cases. I think it's just a feature of later printed dials.
When I did my pre purchase research, It was that exact pic that made me think that mine might be straight with perhaps a minor question mark over the hand colour but now it has arrived and I can look at up close I can see that the indices on mine are painted thin lines and not the black (Onyx?) inlays of this one and others. If eBay don't side with me, I may get stuck with it but it is annoying when something like this happens. I hate it when the seller plays dumb, particularly when they seemingly sell dozens of watches a month so probably have a decent idea what they have.
I've just reread this thread and realised westmtn was talking about the second hand on your watch and not his own. Doh! Yours might be fine, I honestly don't know, but it does rather look as if it belongs on a Dynamic.
I read it the same way you did to be honest! I think some of these did leave the factory with black dial and the red dynamic hand as there are a few out there (see above) but I have never seen any with a blue hand. That said they did do some small runs of staff only Geneve models with bright colours so it is possible I guess. I think on balance I am going to try to return it.
Quick poll. If you were in my shoes, would you accept a part refund based on the dial or just return? If so how much would be fair?
I pretty much ignore the description for watches on ebay. If the seller claimed the dial was original I think you have a strong case. The watch is not as described. Get as many sources as you can to back up your case. Take it to a local watch maker, reference this thread, take some close up macro shots.
+1. Not sure I'd go to the extent (and possibly expense) of taking it to a watchmaker, but if it was described as original you can indeed ref. this thread as it's pretty clear from the pic that the dial has been at least retouched or even entirely redone. If the seller is honest they should accept the return when shown the evidence, but if not then it's a fact, good or otherwise, that ebay tends to favour the buyer in a dispute. On a related note, the painted "onyx" markers aren't actually an issue. Real onyx inlay was provided on the ritzier Seamasters but not it seems on the cheaper Geneve. I have a 65 Seamaster with onyx inlay and a 68 Geneve with markers painted to look like onyx, both with 552 movements. However that doesn't alter the fact that the dial finish is not original, nor do I really believe that blue second hand especially in light of the dial.
Strictly speaking they described the watch as "very genuine" and as belonging to a family member since new which isn't quite the same thing as completely original I know. I will still push the line that a hand painted dial isn't all that genuine and see how I get on. So far the seller isn't responding so it may go the Ebay's discretion which as noted above is often balanced more to the buyer than seller. I went into it with my eyes open and the sums involved aren't huge but it is still disappointing as the 166.0041 is the cheap way into the world of the 565.
The term "very genuine" is intentionally misleading. There are not varying degrees of genuine. If you are referring to the entire watch then it's either a genuine watch or it isn't. In this case it isn't. Genuine watches do come in varying degrees of condition. It might be genuine apart from the dial and second hand, but to most watch enthusiasts the dial is the watch. If it belonged to a family member since new they would have known about the redial and they failed to disclose that information in the description. gen·u·ine ˈjenyəwən/ adjective truly what something is said to be; authentic. "each book is bound in genuine leather" synonyms: authentic, real, actual, original, bona fide, true, veritable; More
That is how I am leaning at present, particularly since the seller seems unwilling to enter into a dialogue about it so I guess I will have to depend on Ebay to force them to take it back. Even if they knocked, say, £50 off I think I would still not wear it since it wouldn't feel right. I would probably end up pulling the movement for a project or repair and that is no way to treat a near 50 year old watch. It has made me realise that I need a 560 series piece in my life, it has a lovely feel on winding and looks a million dollars.
Update: While the seller was unresponsive to my complaint, eBay immediately imposed a return/refund on him so the watch is going back today. Pity as it ran really well! I will keep a look out for a more original one like those shown in pics above. It will be interesting to see if the seller is more honest or at least careful with their relisting description. Thanks to all who contributed.
