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1967 Speedmaster- expert opinions much appreciated!

  1. ja_rushton Jul 23, 2013

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    It was recently my 21st birthday and I've been itching to start a proper watch collection since I was a young boy, but I wanted to start with a true classic! I know I'm in for a future of costly services with a cal. 321 but I can't resist the beauty and rarity of the movement. Anyway, I have found one that falls into my budget and I am in actually in the process of buying (I realise I should have come here sooner, but it was on eBay and I had to act fast!)

    http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8ac8a557.jpg
    http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/...pscf27f23c.jpg
    http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/...ps499541f7.jpg

    The bezel and second hand (and obviously the strap) are not original and it doesn't have any papers but does come with the original box. Serviced regularly (every 5-7 years) since initial purchase, although not by Omega...the seller does mention that sometimes the hour marker on the chrono sticks when resetting but can be rectified by re-running the chrono.
    The seller is an amateur horologist and also adds this information about time-keeping:

    "Putting the watch in my timegrapher shows that when face up the watch is gaining 2 seconds a day, when crown up it is loosening 4 seconds, and face down it is gaining 4 seconds. All in all not bad. Amplitude is between 280 to 305 degrees. However there is a beat error of aprox 1.2 ms - not terrible for a vintage watch, but tolerance from a fair watch maker on a watch like this after service would be about .8ms to 1ms, i would be happier with it at .4ms but 1.2ms isn't drastically wrong."

    So, what is the general consensus? Is it a good purchase at £2000
    Cheers guys [​IMG]
     
  2. ja_rushton Jul 23, 2013

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    Sorry guys, posted to the wrong discussions board, my mistake.
     
  3. SpikiSpikester @ ΩF Staff Member Jul 23, 2013

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    Moved to vintage.

    As for the watch, personally I wouldn't go for it unless you are looking to use it as a daily wearer. (Although if you want a daily wearer, you are better off spending half the amount and getting something that requires less TLC like a modern Seamaster.)

    Problems are: the hour & minute hands are wrong, the chrono sweep hand is a modern replacement, the bezel is wrong, the case has had a hard life and is in a poor state, the chrono pushers look to be more modern service parts, the sticking hour chrono hand is a common problem indicating it needs a service. That issue will only get worse & I wouldn't accept his answer that it's ok becuase you can give the chrono another go. It is going to deteriorate & you will have to get it serviced.

    £2000 isn't a great price considering the condition. Maybe you will find another in better condition at that price, maybe not. But by adding a bit more you will be able to find a better example - just be prepared for it to take a bit of time and patience.
     
  4. ja_rushton Jul 23, 2013

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    Thanks for the reply :) I did notice the hands as well, I forgot to mention them in my post...it would be a daily wearer, and it was specifically a Speedmaster I was looking for. I'm a fan of vintage, I was going to steadily replace the added parts with period vintage over time...a costly endeavour, but ultimately worth it I hope!
    So would this price be too much for this particular example or is it still a fair price? Or would I be better buying a modern equivalent?
     
  5. SpikiSpikester @ ΩF Staff Member Jul 23, 2013

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    For that money you can get a really nice "pre-owned" modern Speedmaster and have a few hundred to spare.

    The really big problem with your plan is that the case is so poor.

    The other stuff you can correct in stages (although it will be a horrible money pit to do it that way), but you will be stuck with a case that is overly worn and dinged up to hell. Polishing all those dings out will just leave even less meat on the case. And you will end spending way more than it would cost to buy one that is in good condition to start with, or even an earlier model like a 105.003, and definitely more than a brand new Speedmaster with warranty !
     
  6. John R Smith Jul 23, 2013

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    Hell, I know the feeling - you're dead set on something, then somebody tells you it's crap :( You really just don't want to hear that . . .

    I wish I had listened to the voice of sanity many times in my life.

    Be guided by the Spikester!
     
  7. Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Jul 23, 2013

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    If you want a speedmaster 321 then this reference is the one to go for if you want the cheapest. Alternatively I bought a lovely 321 Seamaster recently for $1500. Here, let me show it off:

    image.jpg

    The OP watch is simply too expensive. It needs replacement bezel, pushers and hands as mentioned, on top of the fact it urgently needs a service.

    i would say it is a good price at 2000-2200 AFTER the work. Could be more, I seem to be low on some prices at the moment.

    STS will service it properly, and you would need to buy in the bezel and hands - which is achievable but requires patience and an unpredictable amount of money. My quick guesstimate would be about £700 all in. All of this can be done for less, if you are lucky and / or know what you are doing.

    Two other thoughts. Amateur horologists are just that. Amateurs. I don't pay any attention to amateurs. I should know, I am one. Secondly, your photo links in the OP are a bit tedious (well they were for me) and you might loose a lot of people as they give up waiting to be transferred. There is an excellent photo upload system in the forum.

    You are enthusiastic and I doubt anything will stop you embarking on this journey one way or another. I wish you the best of luck, and welcome to the forum. I look forward to seeing your collection grow.

    my knowledge of speedmasters has cost me a fortune .....
     
  8. ja_rushton Jul 23, 2013

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    Thank you all for your kind advice :) hopefully I'll be posting pictures of my purchase soon enough, whether it be this watch or another!
     
  9. g-boac Jul 23, 2013

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    Great idea to get a 321 Speedmaster, and you can ABSOLUTELY find an example that is affordable and complete, especially in the 145.012 and 105.012 references. The one you photographed is absolutely one to avoid, especially for the price. Much, much, much about that watch is wrong, but the price requested is in the ballpark for one that is all complete. Just pass on this one!
     
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  10. ja_rushton Jul 24, 2013

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    To be fair, I'm considering getting a brand new Speedmaster as my first, on the basis that services and parts will be cheaper...also the whole intangible satisfaction of owning a watch from brand new, knowing the watch's history exactly and maybe pass it on to my (as yet imaginary) children one day as 'my' watch. Chrono24 seem to have a very good offering in unused Speedmasters for around £2100-2200...this seems very cheap as RRP in the UK is £2880. Does this sound too good to be true?
     
  11. shaun hk Fairy nuffer Jul 24, 2013

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    GBP$2,200 does sound very reasonable for a new speedie, Kringkily (a very well respected seller on this forum) is asking for US$3,500 for a brand new in box example.
    If you wanted vintage you could get an excellent condition early 70's cal 861 (or birth year watch) for a lot less than you would pay for an average condition cal 321
     
  12. ja_rushton Jul 24, 2013

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  13. MSNWatch Vintage Omega Aficionado Staff Member Jul 24, 2013

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  14. ja_rushton Jul 24, 2013

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    The guy said he'd do it for £2,350, that was his 'best' price...I've not bartered him down any more as of yet!
     
  15. pascs Jul 24, 2013

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    The dial, hands and bezel are in pretty bad shape.........and thats pretty much the most important visual appeal of these watches.

    You could save yourself £1000 and go for an early 861 instead?
     
  16. Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Jul 24, 2013

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    As with many Italian offerings it is much more expensive than I see them sold for elsewhere on Ebay.

    The Italian (and French) market is more sophisticated, in that better examples will fetch higher prices, but this is NOT a better example.

    The dial is too tired for this money, as is the bezel, and the hands.

    The movement ring seems to have a piece missing by the start pusher and the case seems pitted and/or corroded.

    This is a "dealers watch". It has all the right things to make a newcomer feel comfortable - the correct pushers, the extract, and the shiny case.

    I like to buy from private sources or thier agents, not a watch a dealer has had and worked on for a while.

    One of my joys is opening a watch and thinking "Ah - we are the first ones here!"

    Ironicaly then it becomes less origional, but that is one of the dilemas of this little hobby.

    Keep looking. And this is a good reference to own. Also dont give up - and dont expect to buy the pefect watch first time. I didn't.

    Here are two nice examples, both bought for a total of just under what you are being asked for this one watch. (See what I mean about Italian prices?). I then spent about £400 each on them, although admitedly this was 2 and 4 years ago.

    two 105012.jpg
     
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  17. Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Jul 24, 2013

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    ....but you do need to buy one...and then you learn!
     
  18. Varasc Jul 24, 2013

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    As an Italian I may confirm that current prices are high, especially now. And of course these are rare items.
     
  19. pascs Jul 24, 2013

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    :D ............and then you appreciate the good ones all the more for it

    My 861 and 321 .............both of which I really like even though the 321 needs a correct set of hands

    [​IMG]
     
  20. richardew Jul 24, 2013

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    Patience! Keep looking. The first watch is a project. Crappy case, crappy dial, wrong hands, wrong bezel, needs service. The second one is interesting but overpriced. It's a 105.012-63 with the extract of the archives indicating a 1964 production, with professional on the dial. You'll get plenty of tips posting them here. There are 321 speedys that fly under the radar and sell for less than they are worth. As you continue your search you'll find one of these and then jump on it. Here's my speedys. How many speedys does spacefruit have?
    12.30.12 _30speedys n coffee.jpg
    6.10.13 _17003 back homea.jpg