Good Day To All,
Looking for comments/opinions of a Longines Chronograph.
Longines has confirmed that this watch was produced in 1948 and is a 13ZN calibre.
It was sold to Wittnauer, their American agent.
As you can see the watch is inscribed and has matching markings in several places.
The crystal is completely shot and is the cause of much of the distortion in the pictures.
Questions: I have seen the Longines stamp on the movement in other places, typically on one of the arms, this stamp is off to the side as are many other examples I have researched - anyone know why this might be?
The 23432 274on the back case, does this refer to a Reference or is it simply the serial number of the case back?
This watch was gifted to a relative that reported on the Polar Expedition and is original.
Thanks for any info you might be able to offer.

Cheers

 

What an introduction! The 23432 on the caseback is the reference number for this particular model.

Needless to say, the provenance of this watch (that your ancestor took it on a polar expedition) makes it exceptionally valuable. If you have more info on the expedition I'm sure we would love to hear about it.

 

I will say, it appears at least the right subdial has been redone. Difficult to tell about the rest of the dial from the provided pictures.

 

Here are some, hopefully, better pics of the dial.
Very hard to tell, but when you are looking through a loop and can work around the massive imperfections of the crystal, the dial is in great shape.
Can you tell me what makes you think the right dial has been worked on?
Any thoughts regarding where Longines stamped this type of watch?
Best Regards

 

The subdials are recessed slightly below the plane of the main dial. Notice how the left subdial markings basically fill the recess. The right subdial markings stop a long way from the edge which is not going to be original (and also see how the right subdial hand extends beyond the markings).

And actually the left subdial markings don't seem to be centered well in the recess, also a sign that it's not original.

And if you look at the 0.2s markings between 30 and 35 seconds they almost disappear, certainly much much shorter than elsewhere. I think, unfortunately, the whole dial is reworked.

Still seems to have a very interesting history though

 

Hi @RandR,
at first welcome to this forum and congratulation to this great watch which comes with an even greater provenienience!

Regarding what has been said about the subdials and their lack of original printing. If you mind about that, you could check with a loupe if there are still the original turning marks visible. I am talking about the concentrical circles which originate from recessing the sub dials. These circles should be clearly visible with an even amount of lacquer/dial paint on top. Here is a picture of one of my Longines 12.68z to illustrate. Please note that the marks on your dial could be finer, but they should be visible.

 

Hi,
some information seen in J. Goldbergers book:
a ref 23432 should not have a radium dial - there´s one pic from an old Longines catalog without any lume (so the other 23432 which is pictured in that book is not correct, because of its luminous hands and these two pages in G´s book do not seem to be the most reliable).
The unusual movement signature + LXW,etc...is the same as in Goldbergers book.
The numbers below "23432" are individual to this watch, also stamped in the backside of one of the lugs.

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To me the dial looks strange as well. Both subdials reprinted, the whole dial looks to small for this case, an unusual "swiss made" instead of "swiss". I will attach pics of a 23485, which is a correct luminous reference for an end-fourties-13ZN. Please look for threadstarters watches top of the minute hand - it seems to be too long for this dial. The dial foot (near the balance) is too blurry - one should look if it is coppered (OK) or silvered (redial)

rgds - h.u.

 

seen on Ebay 2012:

 

And here to confuse us all: A 23485 (non-luminous) that should be absolutely correct:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/longines-13zn-and-a-grana.63228/

 

Forgot: Some say that the reference of these watches (maybe 4-5 similar 37mm/waterproof/press on casebacks) is "5415". 23432 and 23485 would be "batch numbers" then. So is it possible, that a 23432 could have had a radium dial as well?

 

Sorry to delay responding - it was back to work!
There are turning marks visible on both subdials.
For the record, the Longines records show it as a ref. 5415.

Thanks very much

 

Understand your observations regarding the subdials, in terms of the 0.2 markers i can say that the crystal is to blame. It resembles the surface of a local skating rink more than a watch crystal - it is distorting the picture, you have to view it at an oblique angle to see that part clearly.
Thanks very much

 

@Seiji, you’re right what’s interesting about the watch is the provenance and the refinished dial doesn’t matter so much.
So I concur with your advice that the OP should research the polar expedition and seek historic documents associated with the watch.

 

Very cool watch! I'd love to hear more about the history. I think that's what makes this one particularly note worthy.

As others have already mentioned. There's no doubt in my mind that this is a refinished dial the "Longines" logo is not the font you would expect to see, the subdial printing has issues, and the style of the radium numerals, particularly the "6" are all outside of what I would expect to see on this reference.

 

The watch if truly a part of the USA military North Pole Polar Basin expedition of 1955, lead by


Lots of Cold War CIA activities during that era at the Polar Basin. Activities and studies there were top secret.

 

1940-1950s Presidents like Eisehower authorised many secret operations Freeze, Freeze II, Deep Freeze, Deep Freeze II with the US Navy to understand effects of extreme cold on military assets. At the same time Soviets were also studing and charting both polar regions.

 

Stop with the dial. The value is history. This is an era before aerial recon. Only way to get intelligence reports and charting was to go there.

Reminds me of a quote I heard about a Leica M3 single stroke that was in ugly condition. It was used by a famous Vietnam war journalist and offered for sale. The buyer said I want a discount for the condition. The seller said, "This guy wouldn't know a collectable even if it bit him on the ass!"

Different camera below, but you get the point.

 

The watch came to me through a relative.
He had reported on the expedition for a Toronto newspaper, so was with them.
I have some pictures he took on the trip and will try to dig them up.
With regard to the concerns around the dial, I am trying to locate relatives of members of the expedition. If there are any other watches from the expedition, comparison will be a critical factor in determining authenticity and originality.
I welcome all comments and observations, I would rather know the truth about the originality of the piece. Facts are the important thing.

Here is a copy of one of the stories filed in '55.
Point of interest, the leader's wife Peggy Keenan, was with them and was attempting to be the first woman to reach the North Pole.
John Frederick Stanwell Fletcher had previously been married to Theodora Cope (Stanwell Fletcher). She is famous for writing Driftwood Valley, about their time living in the wilds of northern British Columbia. Keenan was a well know miner in South Dakota. Fletcher died around '61 if I'm not mistaken.