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  1. oddboy

    oddboy Zero to Grail+2998 In Six Months Apr 21, 2015

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    Hey gang,

    I came across a 105.012 with a pre-pro dial. I thought that was odd as a number of sources indicate that 105.012 should all have pro dials.

    105.012_edit.jpg

    However, I also came to find an article by Mr Maddox (PDF link) in which he says that for an early '65, pre-pro dials are ok. It's a good read (which I had not found before)!

    The movement appears to have a 24,003,xxx serial, but that seems too late for an early '65. So what serial range would be appropriate for an early '65? Roman Hartmann's serial number chart says that 24M would be a match for a 145.012, but MWO (pg. 284) says 105.012-65 would be in the range 22,825,xxx to 24,527,xxx. It seems like this bit doesn't quite jive with Mr. Maddox's assertion that a 105.012 with a pre-pro dial is acceptable in *early* '65, but the 24M serials would be later issue for 105.102.

    Also, does it look like Unadjusted was scratched off? The movement is marked with OXG.

    IMG_20150421_082401_edit.png

    Any thoughts on whether a pre-pro dial is acceptable on a 105.012, and how to verify the expected range for a -65?

    The dial itself is a T Swiss Made T that looks like an A7 from MWO. T spacing appears to line up as expected. Not sure about the lume. It looks like it might have exploded and crumbled. Is that normal?

    IMG_20150421_091359_edit.png

    Is this worth considering?

    Thanks, as always, I greatly appreciate your help!
     
    denispb63 likes this.
  2. Spacefruit

    Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Apr 21, 2015

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    Well everything is worth considering....

    In my opinion, I do not think that the 105.012 ever left the factory with a non pro dial.

    I have seen more than one non pro dial in a 105.012 and I am convinced they are replacements. I do not have hard evidence for this, but I have no evidence to support the idea that these non pro dials are original.

    For example these 105.003 dials appear in 105.012's that have evidence of service and wear. I have never seen a non pro dial in a 105.012 that looks totally original from a one owner source. They have always been a multiple owner watch.

    I have met two watchmakers who worked on Speedmasters in the 1970's who claimed to use "any parts they had" to reassemble speedmasters, not even caring which back went back on what. Apparently in those days it did not matter to them, in the same way we might treat $100 Seiko divers watches today.

    One specifically mentioned that he would service speedmasters together, and reassemble them not caring which case back went on which.

    I can only imagine, that in 1970, a watchmaker might say to a service customer, here, I have this dial now, or if you wait 4 weeks Ill get you a professional one.

    Omega has a reputation for using a "whatever in the parts bin" manufacturing process. I think this theory is pushed too far. I can see it when there are two manufacturers for things like hands (triangle vs straight lume in alpha hands in 2998's) but not in Pro vs Non Pro dials in a reference that was specifically designed as an upgrade, (to "Professional").

    I am sure this watch is an assembly, taking into account the serial.

    Possibly a re-cased 105.003-65
     
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  3. oddboy

    oddboy Zero to Grail+2998 In Six Months Apr 21, 2015

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    Thanks for the feedback!

    In the linked article, Mr Maddox says:

    "In summary, originally, 105.003’s all have dials without “PROFESSIONAL,” and the plain 19 mm lugged case. The 105.012 can have either dial and the twisted lug 20 mm asymmetrical case, but one should scrutinize the serial number and year of production on the caseback carefully when considering the purchase of the 105.012 model: If the 105.012 you’re looking at is a -63 or -64 with a non Professional dial, it’s probably fine, and with a 105.012-65 either dial is correct, but a Pro dial on a 1964 or earlier model should be viewed with caution."

    MWO isn't conclusive on the topic, though it doesn't list the 105.012 as a reference examined for the A7 dial.

    :confused:

    Is there more to this than a parts watch?
     
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  4. Spacefruit

    Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Apr 21, 2015

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    No.

    Chuck Maddox was my inspiration to document my own speedmaster journey. He really had a genial and knowledgeable way of expression, and frankly I feel he was a pioneer in spreading knowledge in a kind and non judgmental way. (Just look at some of the Rolex fora).

    Chuck was an academic. He also was an observer and times have moved on. I believe he would be the first to admit that new information surfaces all the time, and since his demise we have things like access to Omega Archives, this forum, and greater bandwidth as well as a large collector community all of which add to a greater exchange of information.

    What I am saying is that Chucks articles are based on the best knowledge of the time, and now we have more.
     
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  5. JohnSteed

    JohnSteed Apr 21, 2015

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    Seems one would need specific check on the s/n
     
  6. oddboy

    oddboy Zero to Grail+2998 In Six Months Apr 21, 2015

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    as in an extract?
     
  7. JohnSteed

    JohnSteed Apr 21, 2015

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    Possible but takes times. More of a contact witin the castle that can help. Think we have a member or two that may be able to help....if they see the thread
     
  8. Fost

    Fost Apr 21, 2015

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    I think the members you are talking about will say that a 012 will not have leave the factory with a pre pro dial. But hopefully they will go through this thread.

    I was expecting to see the old omega ad with the pré pro 105012 in this thread :p
     
  9. Spacefruit

    Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Apr 21, 2015

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    Oh yes. That reliable source of info.....old Omega adverts!
     
  10. Fost

    Fost Apr 21, 2015

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    No offence it was just a personnal
    Joke because several year ago same discussion about pre pro 105012 took place in a french forum, and this add was the only ' potential proof ' but nobody Was able to confirm this legendary...

    image.jpg
     
  11. Spacefruit

    Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Apr 21, 2015

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    Absolutely no offense intended.
    I used to scratch my head looking at old adverts, thinking, how have I got it so wrong?
    Then a trip round the omega museum - and all those radials and modern bezels....
     
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  12. dsio

    dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Apr 21, 2015

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    The other thing is they'd have needed to have all the advertising materials and price sheets like that printed months prior to the watches shipping out, likely photographed and designed months in advance of that again. If you've got mockups of the new 105.012 case but the first shipment of dials from Singer isn't going to arrive for a few months you use what you have. These days you can use renderings and have short print times, back then they would have had to make do.
     
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  13. Spacefruit

    Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Apr 21, 2015

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    Most sensible explanation I have read about adverts
     
  14. speedy4ever

    speedy4ever Moonwatch Only Author Apr 21, 2015

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    105.012-63 from 20.520.3xx (meaning the very first 012s) are with pro dials and no Ts, then how would you explain 105.012 in 24 million with pre-pro dials?

    Since long, wrong information was transmitted and source was even Omega museum itself. Chuck was our guru, our inspiration, but like sciences, knowledge has evolved since and what could be considered as possible at a given time, must be considered as wrong or at least very unlikely a few years after...and things will probably still move on. We are getting closer to truth, but will we reach it one day?
     
  15. oddboy

    oddboy Zero to Grail+2998 In Six Months Apr 21, 2015

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    Thanks all for the feedback. Makes sense now. I may have got carried away with another prepro dial and was trying too hard to convince myself.

    As far as appraising for a parts/spare, does this make sense to get to a reasonable price (note, I'm just theorizing at this point)

    DON bezel, $1000
    Prepro stepped dial, $1000
    Movement, $2000
    Case, $1000

    ?
     
  16. Spacefruit

    Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Apr 21, 2015

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    Bit high on movement otherwise agree
     
    Edited Apr 21, 2015
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  17. watchyouwant

    watchyouwant ΩF Clairvoyant Apr 21, 2015

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    you might get $ 4500..... maybe. to make the crime, you commit, worth it, buying should be less than $ 3500.....still a crime. damn. kind regards. achim
     
  18. oddboy

    oddboy Zero to Grail+2998 In Six Months Apr 21, 2015

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    I wasn't planning to, just curious how to get to a price that would make it worth buying. I wouldn't strip it and sell it off for parts. No interest whatsoever in doing that.

    I've already let it go..
     
  19. Spacefruit

    Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Apr 21, 2015

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    Dont forget, this may well be a complete 105.003 in the wrong case.....

    Someone is bound to have a case lying around
     
    Bienne2998 likes this.
  20. rolexfantastic

    rolexfantastic Apr 25, 2015

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    I strongly believe there is no "crime" here.
    The 24 Mill serial is not unusual for the ref. The movement markings are correct for the period and ref. As movement tells, there is absolutely no chance for this to be a 105.003 re-cased.
    My bet is, this watch, less the dial, left the factory as a 105.012-65.