OK, guys . . . so let's try a different angle on the subject of the beloved El Primero movements: Why do you believe that the El Primero movement is so admired / loved by enthusiasts? Is it:

• the physical beauty of the movement?
• the engineering accomplishment / elegance of the design?
• history of Zenith, before 1969?
• use of the movement over the years -- Zenith, Movado, Ebel, Rolex, etc.?
• Charles Vermot story?
• is the movement especially reliable / rugged / accurate / easy to service?

I am referring to the El Primero movement and all its derivatives over the years -- from the first El Primero to today's versions.

Finally -- can you think of other movements that are similarly loved, from other brands? And what would these most admired movement be?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Jeff

 

Technical stuff and history aside, El Primero just sounds so much more romantic and charming than cal 321 or 11.

 

I "discovered" the El Primero while researching the potential purchase of a vintage "Zenith" Daytona... I ended up buying an early El P instead. Most American collectors need that kind of entree into the world of vintage Zenith, because of the European focus of Zenith's sales and marketing back in the Golden Age... thus the relative wealth of information coming from Italy (where Zenith has always been huge) and the brilliant Nicola1960. The story is of course spellbinding to many WIS's, and the movement is in many ways a pinnacle of mechanical engineering, but - ironically enough - I doubt that anything has done more for the resurrection of the El Primero and interest among current collectors than Rolex's validation of the movement (by using a modified version in the Daytona from 1988-2000), considering the weight of the Crown among watch buyers/collectors. It also helps that, because of the Daytona connection, most watchmakers who repair Rolex... thus, probably most watchmakers... are comfortable working on El P's.

 

For me, it's the fact that the brand (and EP) have been under appreciated by American watch enthusiasts. There are fully developed collectors' markets for brands like Rolex, Omega, Patek, and more recently, Heuer, but Zenith has flown under the radar (one could argue those days are numbered). The El Primero certainly received a boost from the association with Rolex, but the ability to own a piece of watch history that has withstood 40 years of service remains available for the average collector through Zenith. The value and style of the vintage pieces is currently unmatched. If you appreciate the craftsmanship of a manufacture movement, how can you not love an EP?

 

Guys:

Thanks for so many excellent responses. I am working on a posting that will attempt to synthesize some of the key points.

Jeff

 

Here's a more general context/viewpoint I mentioned 'on the other side' Jeff:

"The automatic chronograph is where I've settled in terms of watch collecting, for me it is the final last gasp everyday complication of mechanicals before the dark ages and eventual renaissance, a renaissance that was more concerned perhaps with the less utilitarian aspects of the watch and more for the jewellery/visual aspects.


So the first considerations are obviously the first trio of Cal 11, EP 3019 and Seiko 6139; all of which have their merits and different traits. A few years after '69, there came the other two (IMO) important calibres; the Lemania 5100 and the Valjoux 7750 family.
The Cal. 11 is important, but was quickly upgraded into the 'better' Cal. 12 as we know. I too like the off-side crown arrangement and combined with the dial art of Heuer there have been a few superb examples.
The EP 3019 is perhaps the best example of 'getting it right first time' in watchmaking, a superb movement housed in equally stunning watches that are very evocative of their time.
The 6139 is interesting from a historical perspective and although restricted by its 30min counter it included day-date and a wide variety of options - so many that it's hard to pin down 'the' one that represents best this movement. (For me at least).
The 5100 for me is my main love, an integrated column wheeled Massey Ferguson of a movement, ugly and strictly utilitarian with no display back or pretence of fine art, just a pure machine with undeniably the most intuitive and readable chronograph display method. If you actually need to use a chronograph, then this is the one to get.
The 7750 is the most successful, versatile and reliable auto chrono, a workhorse that has been used by many manufacturers - the 'go to' modern movement. In terms of collecting though its ubiquity and diversity lessen its 'specialness', unfairly, but for me there is little 'heart' attraction, but a respect for its success nonetheless.

So, from a personal point of view, the EP and L5100 are top of the heap for me, neither without its detractions, but ultimately the ones I'm drawn to."

 

You won't get any argument from me, but your comments might be sacrilege to some. You don't want to fly over Rolex territory!

 

Guys:

I am loving this discussion!! Well done on all fronts!!

For anyone who might want to compare the beauty of the El Primero and the Heuer / Breitling Caliber 11, see below. We see the beauty of an integrated column wheel chronograph, versus a cam and lever approach, designed by a committee, literally. Now in terms of the look of the watches, I vote for the Heuers, but in terms of the movement, it's got to be the El Primero.

Jeff

 

I love both this nice chronograph, but for Zenith with El Primero 3019 the offer was more complete:
classic, military and sport watches with same movement, remember that we was in later '60..
That's my poor opinion, 3cents

GIGI

 

Wow guys. Thanks so much for this great input.
Highly appreciate this forum and to learn so much about passion, facts and history. Zenith is a brand which I loved as a teenager because of their super ugly (IMO today) defy models. Now being 27, I am currently trying to find my first 1960's/70's EP but struggeling to find an el primero at reasonable el dinero.
What should I keep focus on while searching for the right piece? Any advice would be much appreciated as I just can't tell the difference between 5k-10k.

What are your comments on this EP, see pics, the seller claims dial and hands to be original as the rest of it. I find it looks less colorful than for instance Ben clymers EP. Am I mistaken or is this just a different development of the dial?

Thanks and please keep up this level of making it hard not to read every single one of your comments with heart and soul.

 

I haven't dipped into Zenith, but this is a great thread. Thanks for sharing guys.

 

Great Thread. Soaking it up here.
I only have one, and I'm pretty sure it
hasn't ever been serviced. It's keeping
time 1-2 sec fast per day. Can't get
much better than that. I was impressed.

 

The seller is mistaken or lying. Might be original Zenith hands, not original to the watch. Case is polished and the tachy is probably service as well.

 

Ditto to nearly all of the above.
But another simple thing that makes me appreciate EP's over my vintage Heuers (cal 11/12) - the quick set date!!! Such a pleasure to have that feature on beautiful early chronos.