Some recommendations for oils:

Train either D5 or HP1300 for the larger wheels (most professionals use HP1300, but D5 is acceptable for those on a budget), and for the barrel arbor. Then 9010 for the 4th wheel and escape wheel pivots, as well as balance pivots. 9415 for the pallet jewels, nothing on the pallet fork pivots - they are left dry.

What braking grease are you using? If you are using a new mainspring, you are just installing dry, correct? If you are oiling a brand new spring, that may be costing you amplitude.

If the generic spring you are using is the same dimensions as the genuine (in particular the thickness or strength), it should not make a difference with your own watch - if you were fixing other people's watches, well using genuine parts is important or they need to know you are using generics.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Al

 

Hi Chris,

for this kind of calibers I personally prefer 9020 for the gear train and the the center wheel. With respect to the pallet jewelsand the balance staff, I use either 9415 or, in some cases, 9010. It goes without saying that you must not lubricate the teeth of the escapement wheel. How did you wash pallet fork and escapement wheel? Traces of past epilame treatment can adversely affect the amplitude.

Cheers, Maurice

 

I am afraid nobody can. 0.5 is too tiny.
Over many years I have found that most old Omega calibers, even chronographs, left the factory with a beat error in the range 0.6-1 ms.

 

Does this mean it's better to newer oil new springs, not even braking grease?

 

New white alloy springs do not need the coils oiled, as they come with a dry lubricant already applied. Lubricating a mainspring with oil is only done if you are using a spring over again, which is something I rarely do. If you are going to do it, it only needs the very slightest film of oil/

Of course for an automatic the barrel wall need braking grease applied.

Cheers, Al

 

Can I ask why you recommend these lubricants? Also, a bit puzzled with your statement about not lubricating the teeth of the escape wheel. Can you please explain why you are saying this?

Cheers, Al

 

Hi Guys

Thanks for the responses, they are much appreciated. The matter of oiling seems to have some personal preferences amongst the professionals and knowing the much more recent experience of yourselves, I will take these recommendations and bring myself up to a better standard.

The big thing is that you are both specifying synthetic oils. I have been using natural oils simply as they are those used in period and the movements were probably designed for them. Anyway, I will bring myself up to date. Oils typically used so far for these 12.5 ligne movements (based on advice and a recommended oil chart):

Keyless works: 8200
Barrel wall: 8213
Barrel arbor: D5
Train: D5
Escapement wheel: 8000
Pallets: 8000
Balance staff: 8000
Auto winder: D5

Moving to synthetic oils, I would now understand from Al with, some extrapolation, and Maurice in ().
Keyless works: 9415
Barrel wall: 9501
Barrel arbor: HP1300
Train: HP1300 (9020)
Escapement wheel and 4th wheel: 9010
Pallets: 941* (9010)
Balance staff: 9010 (9010)
Auto winder: HP1300

* Al, I assume you mean 941 here as 9415 is a grease?

It seems that Maurice is specifying a lower viscosity than Al in the train. I assume to improve amplitude (?) or just personal preference. By the way, those recommendations are the same as in one oiling chart I have.

I am oiling the exit pallet mating surface very lightly through the inspection holes, advancing the escape wheel a quarter turn and repeating until all escape teeth have been in contact.

Prior to that I am also oiling the fork pivots with almost a smear of oil before mounting. No oil in the fork jewels. It appears this may be unnecessary and not recommended. All other wheels go in dry and oil applied after assembly.

New springs go in without opening and additional greasing. I think trying the generic spring on this watch, listed by Cousins as an alternative, was a false economy. Anyway, all others have proper Omega springs.

I clean the fork with a cleaning fluid and ultrasonic and, just for the pallet jewels, a final polish with pith.

I've written a lot here so will review it for mistakes later but, thanks in advance for any comments.

Cheers, Chris

 

Chris,

If you look at any technical guide for a modern movement, for example pick an ETA 2824-2, this will give you a good guide for how this movement should be lubricated. Yes lubrication can start holy wars between watchmakers, but if you want to follow the sort of oiling techniques and recommendations used by Omega presently, the 2824-2 technical guide will be a good start. Of course the automatic is different, so not all of it applies, but certainly the base movement oiling will be accurate. If you need a copy please let me know.

Synthetic lubricants are superior to their natural counterparts, so there is no need to use what the watch used when it was initially produced. Synthetic lubricants last longer and provide better performance that natural oils generally.

Some specific comments:

9415 - this is a thixotropic lubricant, and is only used for lubricating pallet stones where they contact the escape wheel teeth. When applied it looks like a grease, so it is quite good at staying where it is placed, unlike a thin oil like 9010 would be. Under pressure is becomes much lighter and does a wonderful job of lubricating the escapement, while giving long lasting performance. It is the industry standard pretty much, and all current Omega technical guides show this for the pallet stones, with the exception of the co-axial calibers of course, which are a different animal altogether. It is superior to 941, and most people with recent education use this on everything - I use it on all Swiss lever escapement watches I service, from 18,000 to 36,000 A/h.

For the barrel I use Kluber P125 Chronogrease, which again is what you will find as a recommended barrel braking grease on any modern Omega technical guide.

For the winding/setting mechanism, you can use 9504 (what Omega recommends for grease, and also for lubricating the cannon pinions on most of their watches) or you can use Molykote Dx - I find either just as effective for the winding/setting.

There is no need to oil the pallet fork pivots at all. And if you want a detailed discussion of how to oil the escapement properly, we would also need to talk about the use of epilame. Maybe another time for that one.

Cheers, Al

 

Thanks again Al. Your comprehensive reply is appreciated. I will go away and digest it. I have the Omega 1120 guide and will get the ETA one as well. It's a steep learning curve just for the oiling techniques (hence a real watchmakers course is spread over years...) but, I am finding this interesting as we go.

The move to synthetic oils is interesting and I will change to those. From a usual Engineering standpoint, I would try and stick with the oil used in period as tolerances tend to improve over the years and old tolerances don't usually suit a more modern lubricant. That was my thinking but, the advice here has brought me to a different way of thinking for watches.

I have worked on a few practise movements and half a dozen of my own watches and fully expect to do them all again in the near future. This is helping me a lot to get an insight into correct techniques.

I have just realised you are in Ontario. I spent an enjoyable year and a half working in Montreal (I know that is in Quebec....) at Bombardier back in the mid 90s. It was my first experience of working overseas (I am an Aerospace Engineer) and have some fond memories of Canada. Unfortunately, come the second winter, I left as I couldn't cope with the cold, even though I'm a Brit!

Cheers, Chris.

 

Al

A couple of questions here - borne of blind faith in other guides.

Does KT22 no longer have any place in this world? I just tend to use this on the winding/setting mechanisms of three hand watches - especially stems.

Is 9501 (the old Jisma) just reserved for chronographs?

As you bring up the subject of epilame, I use it on the escape wheel and cap jewels (a complete immersion for 2 minutes) and the palate jewels. For the palate jewels, I rather awkwardly stand the palate fork against the side of the bottle cap with a small layer of epilame in the cap - again for 2 minutes. The only reason I do this with the palate is because I read the BHI guidance note that said you should only use it on the jewels.

My biggest challenge is oiling/greasing the palate jewels. If I use a 10 x or 15 x eyepiece, I find that I am too close to be able to manipulate the oiler - so I use a 5 x eyepiece which is a bit hit-or-miss with the accuracy. I am considering buying a stereo microscope for this (and to make adjusting chronographs easier) is this a sensible move?

 

Hi Stewart,

There is no problem with using KT-22 on the winding/setting - this area is quite forgiving when it comes to lubrication, and many tech guides that have not been updated still call for using HP1300 in this area, so any suitable grease or oil will work fine. The winding and setting on most Omega calibers is a very forgiving in this regard, unlike say a Rolex 3135 - that design is not my favourite and if you don't get the lubrication exactly in the right places it can cause issues pulling the crown out.

Most Omega chronographs are calling out 9504 where a grease is required. I think the switch here is more about who owns the company producing the lubricant rather than how well it works compared to the Jismaa products. Keep in mind that some companies don't want to use oils produced by others, so it's more about business than the technical side of things. If you have a brand parts account, you need to use what that band specifies unless you want to lose your account.

I rarely use epilame on balance jewels. If the jewel is properly cleaned it doesn't typically need it. Depending on the movement and how you plan to lubricate reversing wheels, the escape wheel and reversing wheel are epliame treated - make sure you dry them off with heat when they come out of the solution. The solvent used will evaporate so quickly that condensation will form on parts as the solution dries, and this can cause rust to form.

I push the pallet fork into a piece of soft pith wood, and use a modified syringe to apply the epilame treatment just to the pallet stones. It should not be applied to any other parts of the fork such as the pivots or the fork itself. Improper epilame application has been cited as a possible cause of wear on the pallet fork in some watches - I have seen this myself on some ETA based watches I have serviced.

Lubricating the escapement can be challenging for a beginner. After using epliame, install the balance and let the watch run dry for say 10 minutes. This will wear away a channel in the coating on the pallet stones, and when you apply your 9415 it should lay right in that area. Apply to the exit stone from the train side - very small drop on the stone. Then cycle the pallet fork back and forth a few times until the oil is gone - should take 4 or 5 teeth or so. Then apply another very small drop, and repeat until you have gone all the way around. Then cycle the pallet so the wheel goes around at least 4 times to spread the oil evenly, then check the amount applied to each tooth. There should be a small wedge or ball of 9415 forming between the tooth and jewel when the heel of the tooth is about 1/2 way across the stone face.

There are other ways of doing this, but this is the most widely accepted method. If you have ever had any Rolex training, they like to let the watch run and introduce an oiler from the dial side through the access holes, and let the teeth of the escape wheel run through the drop of 9415 on the oiler. Personally I find that does not give me the control I want for this task, but again it is an accepted method.

I have only ever used a 10X loupe for escapement oiling - that is all you should need really. If you don't have one, I would recommend getting a good quality aplanatic loupe at 10X or the most 12X for this.

Cheers, Al

 

The 1120 guide will be very helpful to you. With any oil - old or modern - it would be held in place on pivots by capillary action. The old oils will tend to gum up more quickly than modern, where modern almost seem to evaporate, but over a longer period of time.

Yes I'm in Ontario - we have plenty of cold weather in the winter, and today is a nice hot one with temps in the low 30's with high humidity. we have not had many of those this year unfortunately.

I don't think Britain really gets cold unless you are at altitude somewhere....certainly not what we consider cold anyway!

Cheers, Al

 

Thanks Al.

I guess the definition here is about cleaning the escapement. I don't put the pallet fork or the balance through the cleaning machine (Elma \super Elite) as I am not sure if the L&R #111 and #3 will effect the jewels so I clean the balance and pallet in One Dip and then the pallet jewels with Rodico - or more recently AF Rub Off ( since reading your post)

 

These parts are fine to run through the cleaning machine. Commercial watch cleaning solutions will not have a negative impact on the shellac, so running them through the cleaning machine is what every major service center and most watchmakers would do.

On watches that you can, remove the balance jewels from the cock and main plate, and mount it with the balance assembly on the main plate. I've never broken a pivot doing this, or had jewels come loose. Just keep the spin to a reasonable rate and you will be fine.

The pallet fork I typically place in a small screw top basket, and sensitive parts like this I keep away from larger parts like bridges or even screws. So I typically put the pallet fork and the lower balance jewels in one small basket, then the train wheels (including the escape wheel) with the upper balance jewels in another. If you are cleaning any other sensitive parts like chronograph runner etc., they also are kept away from larger parts in the baskets.

Cheers, Al

 

Hi Al,

I prefer 9010 over 9415 when using Fixodrop. In my experience the combination of 9415 and Fixodrop gives origin to a sensible diminution of amplitude in low beats calibers (18000/21600).
The teeth of the escape wheel do not need to be lubricated because they should get the correct amount of lubricant from the contact with the pallets of the fork. However, this is, as you know, a rather tricky procedure and every watchmaker has developed his own technique over time.


Cheers, Maurice

 

Hi Maurice,

Are you running the watch with the escapement dry for a few minutes after applying epilame, and before using 9415? If so, it should have no effect on the amplitude. I have never heard this claim made before actually.

I service a lot of low beat watches (both modern and vintage), and have never had amplitude issues that I would contribute to using epilame and 9415...

Of course the oil will transfer to the escape wheel when you apply it to the exit stone. Not tricky at all really compared to really small oiling like with a co-axial. As noted some brands prefer to apply the oil directly to the escape wheel. Either method is acceptable if the end result is the correct amount of oil, and no excess on the teeth.

Yes people will always have their own preference, but personally I am always trying to improve, so if someone can make a well reasoned argument to do something a different way, I will always consider it.

Cheers, Al

 

Yes, Al, but you will find that this does not avoid depressing the amplitude on most low beat calibers. In such a manner one gets a maximum 270-275° versus a maximum of 295°-300°. At least this has always been my experience.

 

I have serviced plenty of 18000, 19800, 21600 watches with plenty of amplitude - well into the 300 range. In my view if something is holding the amplitude down, it's not likely the lubrication on the escapement, but other issues in the movement.

We have had different experiences I guess.

Cheers, Al

 

Hi Al,

I agree with you, we might have had different experiences.
I worked for Omega from late Seventies to about 2005. Until late Eighties we did not use to epilame neither the pallet fork nor the escapement wheel and things were fine. From the beginning of Nineties, if I am not mistaken, we started to epilame the esapement and it was evident from the beginning that this procedure was affecting amplitude of low beats calibers. I personally did several experiments and I concluded that the problem was related to the combination of Fixodrop and some greasy oils, like 9415. This was confirmed by Mr.Tietmeyer in Bienne.
This is my experience.
I raised the problem just because I noticed a low amplitude in the measurements shown by Chris and I thought this might have been the cause.

Cheers, Maurice.

 

Hi Maurice,

Just want to ask again to clarify since you didn't answer - are you letting the watch run with the escapement dry for 10 minutes before applying the 9415?

I'm not sure where you worked (what facility) but if this was a problem recognized by Omega, it puzzles me why all current technical guides for all the low beat movements still call for epilame and 9415. Now many of the old tech guides don't have any lubrication information on them (they are just parts lists), so you have to rely on Work Instructions 27 and 40. In fact these work instructions state that all pallet fork stones for Swiss lever watches are epilame treated, regardless of low or high beat. Every technical guide I have pulled up that has been updated in the last 20 years, and calls out the lubrication for the Swiss lever escapement, calls for 9415.

This would include 861 and family (1861, 1866 etc.), 2201 just to name a couple off the top of my head, and I certainly don't have any trouble getting 300 degrees of amplitude on these movements using epilame and 9415.

Cheers, Al