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Required Re-dialing with a Service from Longines--really?

  1. woodwkr2 Mar 18, 2014

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    Beautiful 13ZN up for auction has 90 bids in less than 24 hours: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1940s-Longines-13ZN-12-Chronograph-/111302675657Purchases made through these links may earn this site a commission from the eBay Partner Network

    The seller says "You are bidding on a 1940's Longines 13ZN-12 chronograph with central minute recorder. I sent this watch to Longines in Switzerland to have it serviced. It's been a few years now, but it still runs well and the chronograph functions properly. It hasn't been worn since the service. They refinished the dial, that was a requirement for the service. The case is great and still retains it's original finish. It's a great watch!"

    I have no knowledge about the seller, but I've never heard of a watch company REQUIRING a re-dial with a service. Even Rolex, who is known for requiring replacement of crystals, crowns, hands, etc. can usually be persuaded to leave the original dial alone. Is Longines factory service really so dumb that they'd require the destruction of one of the towering jewels of horological and chronographic history?








     
  2. LarryG not KennyG, not OG, just LarryG Mar 18, 2014

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    Couldn't they have come up with a proper second hand while they were busy redialing?
     
  3. ulackfocus Mar 18, 2014

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    The customer has the right to leave the dial as is with every watch manufacturer I know of. I had a totally ruined JLC dial that they asked me if I wanted the dial redone or not.
     
  4. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Mar 18, 2014

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    That kind of arrogance is not uncommon amongst the higher-end Swiss "manufacturers". I bought a vintage Audemars Piguet a couple of years ago from an ebay seller (for a good price), knowing that the hands were not original. I had checked with AP and knew that they had the correct, NOS hands. Not only did they refuse to send the hands to their American service center in Florida so that an easy, and relatively inexpensive replacement could be done, but they required that I send it to Switzerland to be assessed.

    I was able to get them to pay for the shipping, but the end result was astounding. They would not replace the hands without doing a full service on the movement, and it gets even better! As I've saved the paperwork, I'll treat you to the absurdity in much of its detailed glory:

    [​IMG]

    Here is the work that was "required":

    [​IMG]

    In other words, the requested $257 job would have only been performed had I spent 10 times that amount for service that I did not want!

    then there was the "optional" work:

    [​IMG]


    So, in summary, the customer requested a replacement of hands, which could have been done for less than $300. But AP refused that request, and would not replace the hands unless a minimum of $2,635 was spent on services neither requested nor desired by the customer. Had the recommended options also been accepted, the total cost of service would have been $5,686 (plus return postage).

    Thank goodness for excellent, independent watchmakers and honest ebay sellers (he took the watch back)!
     
  5. woodwkr2 Mar 19, 2014

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    Their required work is quite reasonable... Until you see the price line.

    This is the real problem when some manufacturers restrict or prohibit part sales to qualified independents. Think twice before buying such a watch.
     
  6. cicindela Steve @ ΩF Staff Member Mar 19, 2014

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    That's like bringing in your car in to have a new muffler installed and being told they will only do it if you have the engine and transmission rebuilt, new tires and brakes put on , with an option detailing of repainting the car with added pin striping. Needed replacement parts extra.
    and oh yes, a new "horn" installed.

    That is both extortion and thievery. :thumbsdown:
     
  7. ulackfocus Mar 19, 2014

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    This is precisely why there have been lawsuits in the US. Every time the independents win a case, the Swiss find a loophole. The ONLY way the US will ever win is to bring back the American Watch Industry and start making watches that compete or beat the Swiss. Only then will Switzerland's manufacturers think twice.... or maybe they'll concentrate on the Asian market where they make a ton of money.
     
  8. woodwkr2 Mar 19, 2014

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    And Australia, and Canada...

    It's a pure, uncompetitive monopoly.

    Imagine buying a BMW and being told that now and forever you had to have it serviced at the authorized dealership, and that BMW, and only BMW, would set the prices. Move to a small town with no dealer?--well then just pack it up and send it to another continent for service. Only supremely rich or stupid drivers would ever buy a BMW again.
     
  9. woodwkr2 Mar 19, 2014

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    Wait a second... I think I've just described Tesla!
     
  10. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Mar 19, 2014

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    Yep....until Asian market fed up with them,too and boost up asian watch manufacturer. Well in 70-80 they almost brought the whole swiss watch industry in its knees.... Swiss watch manufacture should not all follow Rolex footstep.
     
  11. LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member Mar 19, 2014

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    'zackly. I think the challenge to the Swiss is much likelier to come out of China than the US. And make no mistake, there will be a challenge. The very fat profit margin fairly guarantees it. And the fact that the Swiss themselves are already farming out some manufacturing to China creates the tools and knowhow from which it well emerge.
     
  12. gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Mar 19, 2014

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    Which is why I would think more than twice about buying a watch made by one of the "big 3" (Patek, V&C or Audemars), especially a vintage piece.

    I like things done my way, and to my specifications when I'm paying the bill.

    I would not be a very good Swiss citizen, I'm afraid.
    gatorcpa
     
  13. ulackfocus Mar 19, 2014

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    Dude, you're an American. It's genetic for us to rail against tyranny of any sorts.
     
  14. Gavin It's the quiet ones you have to 'watch' out for. Mar 20, 2014

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    This is exactly one of the reasons why I stopped buying modern watches. You are unlikely to be able to get them serviced at independent watchmakers and at at least 10% of the price of the watch. At least with Rolex, most watchmakers can service them if you do not wish to send them to RSC. Try doing that with JLC. I can't even get a decent guy to service Zenith here due to parts.:(
     
  15. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Mar 20, 2014

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    The problem is that very few companies actually sell parts freely. The list of companies that sell parts at all is fairly small, and getting smaller.

    Cheers, Al
     
  16. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Mar 20, 2014

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    You can cross anything made by Richemont off your list, not just VC. And of course there are many other brands other than the big 3 that restrict parts. Hell even a small brand like Kobold restricts parts! Not very "American" of them is it? I've never tried to order say a replacement dial from RGM, but my gut tells me the answer would be no. So if brands that already operate in the US don't sell parts, bringing back the industry there is not likely going to change the parts situation for anyone - the American makers are just as greedy as the Swiss in my experience.

    And the parts access issue is actually more for modern watches than vintage...some background...

    Before all the brands got very greedy and wanted 100% of the revenue from service, they used to freely distribute parts - and at one time I mean actually free. That was well before my time but I have heard stories of old timers sending a request (by letter of course) to a brand for parts, and getting the parts sent to them "with compliments" from the manufacturer. How times have changed.

    When parts restrictions didn't really exist, most brands did not distribute parts directly like they do now. They would distribute through watch material suppliers, and there were hundreds of those around. They would sell in bulk to places like Otto Frei, Jules Borel, and all the other distributors, who would in turn sell the parts to watchmakers. For vintage watch repair now, for brands that won't sell parts, you are relying on the left over parts from that era. So the stock that went unsold at the time the parts were cut off, are all that are out there.

    The number of material suppliers has reduced drastically, but they tend to buy each other up when one goes out of business, so the parts are usually not lost. Add to that smaller material resellers that buy up old watchmaker estates, and there is another source of parts that can come to market for sale for vintage pieces. But again this is a finite supply, so while some parts are available now, they will eventually dry up.

    So the result of this is that while I can get a mainspring (for example) for a vintage JLC Memovox, I can't get parts to service my own modern JLC Memovox.

    And the situation is only going to get worse.

    Cheers, Al
     
  17. ulackfocus Mar 20, 2014

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    Once precedent has been set in the manufacturers favor, why would any one of them go against it?
     
  18. woodwkr2 Mar 20, 2014

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    My understanding is that back in the heyday of mechanical watches, the availability of parts to/by your local watchmaker was a way to gain a competitive advantage over your competition. From the consumer perspective, why buy an Elgin if your local watch merchant was able to assure you that if you buy a Hamilton or Gruen from them, that if you ever run into problems they already have the parts and expertise to have it repaired quickly and locally?

    (NB: I pulled Elgin, Hamilton, and Gruen out of thin air)

    One can only hope that enough consumers run into the same problems as TonyC, grow frustrated with these policies and begin demanding changes by voting with their wallets.

    Problem is twofold: 1) Year over year sales of high end mechanical watches are growing quite nicely (there are several publicly traded companies, and although they don't break out sales by segment, you can look at the trajectory of their sales and revenue numbers). Much of this demand is from the growing Asian/Chinese middle class.

    2) There are too few independent watchmakers left out there. This is due to years of depressed mechanical watch sales, and perhaps more importantly, a changing attitude on the part of the manufacturers to support and in some cases fund schools of watchmaking and horology. Over the past decade, I can think of at least two well-regarded US watchmaking schools that were liquidated after Rolex and others pulled their financial support. And it's not just financial. Even the manufacturers who will supply independents with parts require them to pass skills tests and lab certifications. I'm sure Al can jump in and better explain the hoops that he is required to jump through in order to establish and maintain an account with Swatch. Some of this is understandable, as the manufacturers have to ensure that watchmakers who are displaying their logos in their window are qualified and aren't going to create problems for the brand if their workmanship is shoddy. But some of it is surely to create a barrier to entry, further discouraging independents from bothering.

    It used to be that by graduating from one of the watchmaking schools, you would also achieve your Rolex or Omega (Swatch), etc, certifications because the manufacturers were providing the material and evaluation components to the programs. I'm not totally current with the 'state of the industry' but my understanding is that there are fewer newly minted watchmakers, and the ones who due pursue watchmaking frequently are recruited for $30k/year jobs working in NJ authorized service centers where the environment is far more akin to a factory than our romantic notions of a watchmaker sitting at a pretty hardwood bench with a plethora of shiny brass tools (as Al's pictures frequently illustrate).

    Combine that with the fact that many of the independents are older gentlemen nearing retirement, and you begin to understand how the manufacturers have conspired, consolidating vertical control of the industry in what amounts to an unprecedented generational power grab.
     
  19. jef33 Mar 20, 2014

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    Gruen miam :
     
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  20. Patrick Dixon How do these messages get here? Mar 20, 2014

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    If only that were true.

    Unfortunately you forgot the caveat big - where American interests may be harmed.