Forums Latest Members
  1. Stewart H Honorary NJ Resident Sep 10, 2014

    Posts
    3,070
    Likes
    3,510
    View attachment 74588 As you may have seen from the "What Did You Buy Today" Thread, I am off work this week and not going away.

    Rather than just waste the week, I thought I would set myself a project. So I bought a, rather sorry looking Mk II off of the Bay. At £570, it was a worthy challenge - lets face it, that is little more than a "parts movement".

    The main thing was that, although it was missing an attached crystal (the seller included a new one, albeit without the gasket) it had the inner bezel. this part is now obsolete, so otherwise, it would have been just a parts movement.

    Here are some of the seller's photos:
    $_57.jpg $_57 2.jpg $_57 7.jpg $_57 8.jpg

    $_57 11.jpg
    So, on initial assessment, we can see that it needs 2 case clamps and screws and a set of gaskets - especially the crystal one that the seller seems to have lost.

    Following an initial assessment, it also needed 2 pushers (the bodies of both were badly damaged. These were all ordered from Cousins for delivery last week.

    So, Sunday came and I started stripping it down so I could order any other parts I needed . It was literally swimming in oil and brush bristles. This is the back of the dial and the strange shape is oil, shaped like the hour recorder bridge.
    Oil.jpg

    As i got deeper into it, I was pleasantly surprised to find that the only missing piece was a pallet cock screw:
    Missing Screw.jpg

    So, with the missing screw turning up yesterday, I set about cleaning it and after that, examining the jewels, pivots and teeth. This is when I realised that the reason the paint was scraped off of the second hand was because the fourth wheel post was bent and the hour hand had fouled the second hand - not because the second hand was bent upwards.

    So, there's a quick order off to Cousins for a new fourth wheel.

    As the postman comes at 11:30, I started, today, at 11:00 with the winding/setting mechanism:

    Winding.jpg

    The postman came on time, so straight into the works. This is the gear train:
    Train.jpg

    The back of the train bridge ready for installation. The ham-fisted work was not mine (crown wheel core) but you can see what happens when you do not have your watch serviced regularly - the plating has been worn off by the ratchet wheel and this copper debris must have gone somewhere.
    Back of Bridge.jpg

    On with the train bridge/chronograph plate:

    Bridge.jpg

    In with the balance and ......... It lives:

    It Lives.jpg

    An hour and a half later-

    Chronograph.jpg

    .....and 20 minutes after that:

    20 Mins Later.jpg

    So, this is now what it looks like, ticking away nicely:
    All Done.jpg

    Tomorrow I will adjust the chronograph function and start phase 2.

    To be continued...........
     
    crd, TNTwatch, yande and 12 others like this.
  2. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Sep 10, 2014

    Posts
    26,341
    Likes
    65,041
    Hi Stewart,

    Looking at the photos, I see what I'm sure are oil residue marks left behind on the plates and maybe one on the ratchet wheel - just some examples:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It also looks like there are either more oil patches or stains on the top of the wheel train bridge.

    Can I ask what cleaning methods you use, and what cleaning solutions are employed? The plates really need to be spotless before you start assembling the movement again, so this is something you should look for after cleaning, and if they are not absolutely spotless, they need to be cleaned again.

    Cheers, Al
     
    initialjh likes this.
  3. Stewart H Honorary NJ Resident Sep 10, 2014

    Posts
    3,070
    Likes
    3,510
    Thanks Al.

    I am using L&R #111 and L&R #3 in an Elma Super Elite cleaner. The marks look worse than they are because I darkened the highlights in Photoshop to take out the glare.

    3 minutes in #111, spin for 1 min; 3 mins in de-inonised water, spin for 1 min; 3 mins in #3, then spin for 1 min; 3 mins in the heater.

    As I said, it was literally swimming in oil and I think this has performed some permanent staining.

    Do you reckon I should re-clean it? I pegged out the jewels and bushings after cleaning.
     
  4. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Sep 10, 2014

    Posts
    26,341
    Likes
    65,041
    Hi Stewart,

    So you have a 3 jar cleaner, and just so I understand this, you have the #111 in the first jar, water in the second, and the #3 in the third jar?

    This is a bit unusual, specifically using the water. Normally you would have your proper cleaning solution in the first jar, then the next 2 jars would be rinses. So jar 2 and 3 would have #3 in them. When you change your solutions, the final rinse jar is not emptied and refilled, but is moved to the first rinse (2nd jar). Then fresh cleaning solution is put in the first jar, and new rinse is put in the 3rd jar. Of course the jars are thoroughly cleaned and dried after the old solutions are dumped out, and before new solutions are decanted.

    If you wanted to increase the times, I would maybe run the parts in the first jar of #111 a little longer - maybe 6 minutes. And from the dryer, if the parts are not all completely dry, you should consider running that for longer as well. The staining under where the balance cock was during the cleaning process looks to me like it might need more drying time, as that could be rinse left there rather than oil, but given how you describe the movement it could be oil also. I had this kind of thing when I tried Zenith solutions, and I ended up switching back to L&R because the Zenith didn't dry worth a damn - parts were wet coming out of baskets, which they never are with the L&R.

    Also, proper disposal methods should be followed for used solutions obviously.

    The areas I specifically pointed out do not look like permanent stains to me, but more like oil that still could be removed. If it was a movement I was working on, then 100% I would be cleaning it until those areas were like the rest of the plates.

    Cheers, Al
     
  5. Stewart H Honorary NJ Resident Sep 10, 2014

    Posts
    3,070
    Likes
    3,510
    Thanks Al, very useful - I was just following Elma's instructions.

    I'll give another clean tomorrow.
     
  6. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Sep 10, 2014

    Posts
    26,341
    Likes
    65,041
    Really? They advise using water? Very odd. There are cleaning solution concentrates that are water based, but I don't know of any professional watchmaker that uses them. Some clock guys use water based solutions, but right after the rinse with clean water, they use an alcohol rinse to get rid of the water before drying.
     
  7. Mothra Sep 10, 2014

    Posts
    1,634
    Likes
    1,111
    Parts cleaning aside, looks like you are going to have a lot of watch for your money.... I did look at this one, but knew I didn't have the skills....

    WHat are you going to do with the hands?
     
  8. Stewart H Honorary NJ Resident Sep 10, 2014

    Posts
    3,070
    Likes
    3,510
    Let's start again. It's funny how it only takes half an hour to strip it down but 5 times as long to put it back together!
     
    ChrisN likes this.
  9. Stewart H Honorary NJ Resident Sep 10, 2014

    Posts
    3,070
    Likes
    3,510
    Already sourced a replacement set from someone who had an Omega service.
     
  10. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Sep 10, 2014

    Posts
    26,341
    Likes
    65,041
    One more thing I will mention - just a thing I do on basically every watch I service. I get the base movement - defined as enough parts to make the watch tick, so mainspring barrel, wheel train, major plates/bridges, winding setting, and the escapement and balance - together and lubricated, oil the escapement as you normally would, and then just let it run at least overnight.

    Typically the balance amplitude will climb a bit in the first say 12 hours or so. I will then complete all the timing checks and adjustments, resolve issues with positional variation, etc., and make sure the base movement is as good as it can be before adding on any other parts. This will save you having to tear down things if you find later the timing is not right, or there are amplitude issues, or something else crops up.

    I do this with chronograph, alarm watches, and even just simple automatic watches.

    Cheers, Al
     
    pmontoyap, Dash1 and John R Smith like this.
  11. ChrisN Sep 10, 2014

    Posts
    2,218
    Likes
    4,756
    Very interesting Stewart. An 861 is a long way beyond my abilities but, will get there one day. I have not had much time to look at my, far simpler, 865 but the drive to the central second hand seems to be accomplished in the same way. It looks like an additional wheel mounted on the 4th wheel pinion above the bridge, permanently meshed with an idler and that idler moves to mesh with the gear attached to the central second hand when the button is pushed?

    Looks a good project. Hope to see it come together soon.

    Cheers, Chris.
     
  12. Dash1 Sep 11, 2014

    Posts
    1,823
    Likes
    3,497
    Fantastic thread - thanks Stewart and Archer. I look forward to the next instalment.
     
  13. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Sep 11, 2014

    Posts
    26,341
    Likes
    65,041
    Yes, the drive wheel is mounted to the extended pivot of the 4th wheel - pressed in place and best removed with a proper wheel puller. I install it again using a Horia jewelling tool.

    Some pics - here the wheel is removed using the puller - you need one for an odd number of spokes. They don't come ready to use, so it's wise to spend some time polishing the jaws on the puller before using it:

    [​IMG]

    This meshes with the coupling yoke, and since this is disassembled for cleaning it must be assembled again in order to set the drive wheel back on the 4th wheel at the correct height:

    [​IMG]

    Horia tool:

    [​IMG]

    Pressing the wheel back on - making sure the height of the teeth match those on the coupling yoke - be careful with the long pivot on the 4th wheel dial side:

    [​IMG]

    Now ready to carry on with the remaining chronograph parts:

    [​IMG]

    Cheers, Al
     
    ron n, John R Smith and ChrisN like this.
  14. ChrisN Sep 11, 2014

    Posts
    2,218
    Likes
    4,756
    Great explanation Al. As an Engineer, you have to love all these little specialised tools. I feel another Cousins order coming on....

    Cheers, Chris.
     
  15. Stewart H Honorary NJ Resident Sep 11, 2014

    Posts
    3,070
    Likes
    3,510
    So, here's today's update:

    Taking on board Al, advice and observations, I re-cleaned the whole watch but whilst the staining was reduced, it didn't go altogether so I put the plate and bridges back through the cleaner.....

    ..... and again.

    It still isn't as clean as It once was, but I think it's as clean as I can get it.

    winding 2.jpg

    Bridge 2.jpg


    Bridge Back 2.jpg

    Notice with this one, more of the copper plating had been worn off, but was hidden in yesterday's picture by the crown wheel.

    Plate 2.jpg

    Train 2a.jpg
    At least the stain has gone from the ratchet wheel.


    ...And now it is sitting under a dust cover, ticking away for the night.

    It Lives 2.jpg
     
    Ascalon, Varasc, lenny and 2 others like this.
  16. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Sep 11, 2014

    Posts
    26,341
    Likes
    65,041
    As I have said before, the most important tool is between your ears.

    But yes, these little trinkets do make the job easier, even though they can be quite a lot of money. For example you could certainly install the drive wheel with a staking set, or based on some condition issues I've seen on these wheels, by whacking it with a pair of tweezers or something similar, but the Horia tool gives you total control. It's a tool I use every day. Although it is primarily designed for replacing jewels, or moving jewels for end shake purposes, I use it for jobs like the above, or for installing the driver cannon pinion on a 7750, etc. - the list of uses for this tool is long.

    Cheers, Al
     
  17. Stewart H Honorary NJ Resident Sep 12, 2014

    Posts
    3,070
    Likes
    3,510
    Friday morning update:

    I have now finished assembling the chronograph and adjusting it, including adjusting the hour recording mechanism. The more observant will notice that I omitted to make this latter adjustment on the Soccer Timer (in the WRUW thread) and therefore am suffering the dreaded "hour recorder hand creep". Guess what I will be doing this afternoon. The MK II is ticking away with a hand temporarily mounted on the hour recorder for a few hours just to make sure.

    Anyway, here's the latest pictures:

    Chronograph 2.jpg

    Dial Side 2.jpg

    All Done 2.jpg
     
    Ascalon, Varasc, John R Smith and 2 others like this.
  18. STANDY schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collector Sep 12, 2014

    Posts
    16,311
    Likes
    44,716
    Great photos and post all :thumbsup:
     
  19. JimInOz Melbourne Australia Sep 12, 2014

    Posts
    15,399
    Likes
    32,159
    You are a brave man Stewart, tackling chrono movements takes some nerve. Congratulations!

    I'm still dithering with oiling escapements correctly on Ω 601 movements :D

    And Al, your mentorship and guidance to our members is, as they say "priceless" :thumbsup:

    Another couple of reasons that makes this a great forum.
     
    yande, John R Smith and lenny like this.
  20. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Sep 12, 2014

    Posts
    26,341
    Likes
    65,041
    Checking for hour counter creep - Omega calls this the "hour counter locking test" and they assume it's done after dial and hands are installed, and the watch is cased, but of course I do this before putting the dial on as Stewart is doing.

    Omega recommends you reset the chronograph, start the chronograph, let it run for 5 seconds, then stop it. Now observe if the hand moves over time - they recommend waiting at least 10 minutes. With the dial on you could probably see the counter move in 10 minutes, but doing this with the dial off I let it run longer.

    Cheers, Al